7 Strategies to Build a Powerful Board to Drive Startup Success with Joe Leech, Coach to CEOs

[00:00:00] Welcome back to Understanding VC. VC is a podcast where I engage in in depth conversations with venture capitalists, focusing on one specific topic related to venture capital at a time, much like a student learning from a teacher. Today, we'll be exploring the role of startup boats with Joe Leach. Joe is a coach to CEOs across the startup spectrum from initial stages to IPO.

[00:00:23] Rahul: With a diverse background that includes neuroscience and teaching, he's boasts over 15 years of experience in the tech industry, working with 30 plus startups and major corporations. Let's start. Hi, Joe. Uh, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:36] Joe: It's lovely to be here. Thanks for your time.

[00:00:38] Rahul: So I had a guest VC, Insekri from Vertex Ventures US, say this on the podcast, you know, board is a governance function and not a decision making body. Would you agree?

[00:00:51] Joe: Oh, you're jumping. We're jumping in with a big question here. Yeah, it depends. I mean, as always, it depends. So I think of what boards of directors or the CEOs that I work with, I work [00:01:00] with them from very early stage startups through to kind of high growth through to larger enterprises and certainly the enterprise end, yeah, it's all about governance.

[00:01:08] Joe: They sort of talk about kind of head in fingers out at that level of the board, right? Where you are there for governance checks, balances, you have a legal requirement to make sure this business is run properly. and that's definitely true. I think there's different stages of a board and of a business where directors that sit on that board can be helpful and can be useful in terms of not necessarily decision making, but advisory and support in terms of that.

[00:01:34] Joe: So, yeah, you're right. The VC is right in terms of the fact that they aren't, they can't make decisions, but they can have input and advice towards those decisions through the board anyway. So, you know, you don't expect the board board to be voting on certain things. I mean, that fiduciary stuff and other things like that.

[00:01:50] Joe: That's ultimately the choice of the CEO and the executive team, the decisions, but the board should have an influence. And. That's very useful because again, if you think about most startup [00:02:00] founders and many of startup founders, this is often the first business that they've run. They may have been come from corporate, and so they don't have the experience of running a business.

[00:02:08] Joe: And even if you are a VC, you've, you've sat on boards of other businesses, you've got experience yourself. So you do bring expertise to the table and experience there as well. So. Yeah, absolutely. The board shouldn't be making all the decisions and checking all of the decisions, but they are definitely there to advise and support the CEO in terms of that.

[00:02:27] Joe: It's not just the checks and balances thing that govern.

[00:02:29] Rahul: Yeah. So, I mean, I'd like to start with, you know, uh, it would be great if you could just define what is board of directors and, you know, why this exists.

[00:02:39] Joe: So for many organizations, and certainly in sort of many territories, it's a legal obligation for a, for a limited company, for a corporation to have a board of directors. Okay. The checks and balances are there in law so that that business is run with. And each of the directors is often legally responsible for that as well.

[00:02:57] Joe: So when you're appointed to a board of directors, you're legally responsible for that [00:03:00] business. So it is, it's nothing to be taken lightly in terms of that. And I think what's interesting about boards of directors generally is they are something that's there to support the leadership. They are there to support and help that business to be successful.

[00:03:14] Joe: That's ultimately what they are. You have the board takes shared responsibility for the success of the business in whichever form that takes. But when you're appointed on a board. Absolutely. You've got responsibility for the success of that business, both as a professional, but also often legally, too.

[00:03:29] Rahul: Yeah. And, uh, what are some of those responsibilities?

[00:03:34] Joe: So typically they are things around checks and balances to check that the business has been run in a kind of financially responsible, ethical manner, really, that, you know, that everything's been done properly. And you can kind of see that you can read a lot of that

[00:03:53] Joe: when you do sit on the books. I think a lot of the time you. If you're invited to sit on the board as a non executive director, or maybe you've been a [00:04:00] founder and you're asked to sit on somebody else's board, you don't go back to basics to understand, well, actually, what are my responsibilities here? You think, well, they're taking me on because they want my advice.

[00:04:08] Joe: They want my expertise. And you go in with that hat on, but the reality is it's more than that as well. You do have sets of legal responsibilities. And my advice is just to check up on that. And there's lots of great courses you can take. so many organizations within the UK, the U S across the world, you can do like a one day training course to be a member board member that will give you an overview of those, those skills you need, your responsibilities, but also give you some experience and some ideas about how, what it's like to be on that board.

[00:04:35] Joe: So rather kind of going in as a, an expert, you kind of go in as a board member, which is subtly different in terms of how you should sit on the board.

[00:04:42] Rahul: Yeah. So earlier I was just watching a video where somebody asked, uh, Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. What do you think, is the role of a board? So they mentioned three things. One is to hire a CEO. Second thing is, to make sure that there is no [00:05:00] overreaching by the CEO. And the third thing, um, Third thing is like, there is an independent evaluation on specific stuff, especially around acquisition.

[00:05:13] Rahul: Uh, these are the things that they mentioned.

[00:05:15] Joe: you read the letter of the, of how it should be, you're right that you're correct on all those points, really. And then the board does have the power to talk, you know, to appoint the CEO and to appoint a variety of other people there as well. But that, these responsibilities vary by region, number one, but it's not, it's much more than that, really.

[00:05:30] Joe: That's the very basics of the stuff that you have to do as a board member, but it's much more than the stuff you should be bringing to the table. And if you look at. Typical board makeup as a business grows. Initially, it tends to be, if you're a VC backed startup, it tends to be the CEO who often access the chair.

[00:05:46] Joe: the VCs who've, and maybe there's two or three VCs on the, on the, on the board there, but it's quite a small number of people. It's pretty typical for a U S startup. And you look to, as the, as the company goes, grows, you start to look at hiring perhaps a chair, right? [00:06:00] And again, typically in the U S often the CEO access the chair in the UK.

[00:06:04] Joe: Unusual for that to happen. It's typically you have an independent chair who's a professional chair who knows how to run a board of directors and you can see the value there right there and having a professional chair. So as companies grow, the board grows and the challenges that the board have to address.

[00:06:19] Joe: Changes the business grows as well. and typically again, as the business grows beyond a chair, the VCs, perhaps an angel investor who sits on the board as well, you'll often get non executive directors coming onto the board as well, who are again, founders from other businesses or business leaders who come and bring expertise in particular areas that strategically that business is perhaps lacking in.

[00:06:41] Joe: So be that enterprise sales, if it's a SAS company, um. It's a direct to consumer company. You might get something from, you know, a famous consumer brand to sit on the board, but you typically bring expertise in a strategic level on the board there. Number one, of course, to act as a check and balance to what the CEO and the executive team are deciding to do, but also as a way of [00:07:00] giving further input into that team, you know, in terms of advice and support and all those kinds of things as well.

[00:07:05] Joe: So it's not just a checks and balances thing. There's also a value in having experts on there. to advise, to give you advisory in these sorts of situations as well. Because again, it's about shared responsibility. And I think a lot of the mistakes that happen, a lot of the challenges that the board can present is when it's the executive team versus the board, and the board is the checks and balances, and the executive team are trying to make decisions.

[00:07:27] Joe: And that relationship is not quite adversarial, but more akin to like maybe a teacher and a student, or it's, it's not. A partnership in quite that same way. So it's about building it as a partnership alongside shared responsibilities to make sure that that the business is successful because all those people are there to offer advice, support, and governance to make that business a success.

[00:07:48] Joe: yeah. So in short, it's like, you know, to help the founder succeed,Absolutely to help the business and the founder succeed. That's the best way to put it. Absolutely right. And I think it's not often seen like that [00:08:00] by the founders. They can get into difficult situations where it's seen as being a, like a test or a, a test they have to pass every month or it's, it's scrutiny that they don't need.

[00:08:10] Joe: It's, it's a barrier to their success. And you typically see that when the company is going through a growth phase and. The board is growing. The business is growing. There's a lot of pressure to grow quickly and efficiently and to do all the things that should be done. And that's the point where the board can often be seen by the executive and see by the CEO founder is a bit of a burden.

[00:08:30] Joe: And it doesn't have to be like that, but it can often be seen like that. the board pack. Got to make sure the board's okay. I hope that, you know, it starts to become a weight on the shoulders of the, of the CEO. And actually it should be a support group for them. Something they should look forward to doing is seeing the board because the board are there to help them.

[00:08:46] Joe: So it, It's not only about the kind of nuts and bolts of it, it's also about the relationship between the executive and the board as well. Very much so.

[00:08:57] Rahul: Yeah. And, um, [00:09:00] again. The checks and balances are also important, right? mostly from the perspective of protecting the the shareholders As well as the business

[00:09:09] Joe: Yeah. And that's when you get to a larger company, when you get to a public company, PLC, or when you grow public, then absolutely your, your job as a board member, wholly changes. And again, like. Many members of the team of the business as the business grows, the board's growing as well. And people change, you know, you maybe the same chairman, you have the same you know, a huge multinational company, you don't public company, you wouldn't do. And the same is true of who sits on that board as well. And again, similarly, that can often mean that there's sidestep for investors at that point as well. So investors are very helpful, certainly early on in terms of board support, but as the business grows and becomes much larger, their role on the board does diminish.

[00:09:54] Joe: You know, the founder doesn't need them as much and their value is different in that situation. Again, VCs are [00:10:00] great at helping you be well funded and opening doors and making introductions, but they perhaps don't have the expertise that you need when you're moving internationally, for example. And as you go to bigger business, you need that kind of level of expertise and experience on the board as well.

[00:10:13] Joe: And so that's when, again, the board shape needs to change.

[00:10:19] Rahul: Yeah, so When should a business ideally start forming a board?

[00:10:25] Joe: I mean, I mean, legally, straight away, certainly in certain territories, straight away. But ideally, really, when you start to think about, typically it often happens when investment comes for most. If we're talking purely startups, when investment comes to the point where you need those checks and balances, because again, the investors are there on the board and the board's there to help make sure that the CEO and the executive team is spending that money wisely.

[00:10:46] Joe: You know, they are doing the right sorts of things with that. And so typically that's when it happens. That's when a board of directors is put together. And as I said, that's typically mostly in the U S that's the CEO and a couple of, the VCs, perhaps the investors who put the money [00:11:00] in. but that's also a great time to get further, further support in there as well.

[00:11:03] Joe: So, yeah. Legally, very early on in many territories, but typically it comes at the point when investments put in. That doesn't mean it's not useful beforehand. So if you've got a strong board of directors, that can be a, a, a strong signal in terms of raising, raising money. Again, it's a signal. So if you're, you've got a strong board of advisors, you've got experience from a VC point of view, that can be seen as a benefit.

[00:11:28] Joe: To have that board of directors already in place. Again, you know, you look more serious because you are because you've got advisors who are sitting at that level too. So having a board of directors. Even before you've raised money, if they are, have got the industry heft and experience that you need to run that business through, it can absolutely be seen as an asset beyond the typical, you know, executive team or the team of the founding team of a business as well.

[00:11:52] Joe: So I say as soon as possible, it's good for the business to be able to have that there, but it's got to be done in a way that is again, going to enhance the [00:12:00] business and enhance and strengthen the executive and the CEO, not hold them back. and not feel like they're holding them back as well. So it's definitely a balance, but there's, there's advantages to doing it right away.

[00:12:12] Rahul: Yeah. Yeah. It's like you said, it's a clear signal already, to the investors that you've been able to attract good people, already to the business, even for racing funds. And also you're also kind of practicing, you know, how things are going to be moving forward. Right. Like in terms of like

[00:12:31] Joe: You do. Yeah, you do. Yeah, exactly. You get the experience of running a board in a safer place where, you know, the expectations on you are lower because you've not done this before. And perhaps these people who certainly would have done this before can, can kind of coach you through it a bit. But the reality is, and this is much more common I see in the UK is as soon as you, as soon as you appoint a chair, the chair, if they're an experienced.

[00:12:53] Joe: Chair brings a lot of expertise about running a board to, to the business. And certainly in the UK, the chair has much more [00:13:00] responsibility for running the board. Um, then I typically see in the terms of a kind of shared chair CEO, as it often is in the U. S. So getting a chair early on can help with this too, because it can help.

[00:13:13] Joe: and the chair can offer that advice on setting up a board. And, and again, a typical chair is often an experienced business person themselves. And maybe she has the experience that you as a founder don't have. and can, can offer that as a chair as well. So there's, there's advantages to doing it.

[00:13:27] Joe: Absolutely. But it's also the reality really is as the CEO and the founder, the founders, generally, you want to make sure that board is the shape that you want it to be, that the people on there are people that are supportive of you because there's dangers. Also in appointing the kind of wrong people to the board as well.

[00:13:44] Rahul: Yeah, it's difficult to take them away.

[00:13:46] Joe: Well, it is because, and they do, they have, they have a lot of power and I've certainly seen it here.

[00:13:51] Joe: And again, it, it, it differs legally in terms of territory as well, but you sort of talked about as well that the board have the power to appoint a CEO to [00:14:00] change that. Of course, that obviously differs in terms of, how much of the business that founder owns.

[00:14:05] Joe: But typically I've seen that happen where certainly the, the board have removed a founder CEO. Because they don't feel that they're performing well enough. And that's typically because often what can happen, and this is much more common in Europe, I think, than in the U. S., is that the chair and the early board is made up of often some of the angel investors.

[00:14:25] Joe: And angel investors, from a sophistication point of view, are very different in the U. S. to the U. K. In the U. S., they are very much more hands off. Here's the money. I trust you CEO to do it in the UK. It's unfortunately a little less like that. They're less sophisticated in their view as to how startups should be and often are more involved than they need to be in the board early on.

[00:14:46] Joe: So often you can see in the UK, certain startups get shaped quite badly by early and early angel investors on the board, feeling that they are bringing perhaps more to the table than the investment. And [00:15:00] they are, they become very heavy into the decision making and that can be sending the. The situation in the business to a difficult place.

[00:15:06] Joe: I've seen it twice now where angel investors have actually removed the CEO from their position to take over almost hostility, take over the business because they don't feel the CEO is doing the right kind of work at that level. And that was done in a way that the CEO. Didn't feel that that was the right thing to happen, that the business was, you know, going in a different direction from them.

[00:15:27] Joe: And it was a real challenge. So yeah, you've got to be very careful about who you appoint. And my advice is absolutely, you know, angel investors, they can have a seat on the board, but you need to be very careful about how, how many of those seats you give away and what the expectations are from those board members as well.

[00:15:44] Joe: So again, typically in the U S it's very much hands off. And if you get a, um, a Reputation in the U S as an angel investor of ECU, who is to, who does we have too much influence and power in the board [00:16:00] where it gets around. And again,

[00:16:02] Joe: you know, that counts against you very much in the U S that's very different from Europe where that's not often quite the same way.

[00:16:09] Joe: So you see, sorry, that's my dog going. you see a lot of UK, angel investors being less sophisticated in terms of how they should be operating with the startup, basically trusting the founders that the founders know what they're doing and. Not trying to wrestle that control too much in terms of the board from those from that founding team in the first place.

[00:16:28] Rahul: Yeah. And, uh, you know, before we go on, you mentioned about chair and when you say chair, it's, you're referring to chairman of the board, right?

[00:16:35] Joe: Yeah, chairperson, chairman obviously comes with agenda. So you've got to be a bit careful with that. So it's chair of the board. Absolutely. The way to talk about it. Yeah,

[00:16:43] Rahul: so there is a chairperson of the board and there are also these, other terms, right? Like board observer, and, non executive board member. Well, it would be great if you could just

[00:16:54] Joe: yeah, let's talk. Yeah, I'll break down some of these for you founders again.

[00:16:58] Joe: I'm not, you know, I'm an expert. [00:17:00] I've, I've seen boards. I've worked on boards as well, and I've seen some good experiences of these as well. But, what I've seen in these sorts of situations that is, yeah, you see, you've got board observers, board observers are typically often when you sign a, an agreement with a VC, when you sign a term sheet, part of that may well be a seat on the board and some of the negotiation around if you're raising A particular round, you might have the lead investor who takes the seat on the board.

[00:17:23] Joe: Then you may have some of the other investors as well, who may wish to, to have an observer position on the board as well. Well, literally they can't say they sit, they sit there and they watch, right? They just check that everything's going okay with their investment. So you have board observers who sit there and effectively just do that.

[00:17:38] Joe: Just, just observe. Again, some board observers can do more than that and can lean in and offer advice and support in the board as well. In reality, that should happen outside of the meetings. And of course they can, they can offer that support, but not really in the meeting board meeting as well. It shouldn't really be at that case as well.

[00:17:54] Joe: So a board seat. Often from a VC comes in terms of it comes on the term sheet and observe [00:18:00] observer as a board observer often comes as a, if you're a second in a round or you're supporting a lead investor, you often get an observation. See, I've also seen observers be coaches as well. So, a coach can sit on a board as an observer to help support the CEO in terms of how they're running the board as well.

[00:18:16] Joe: So that's common. It happens. but of, you can also have, appointed legal representatives who are board observers as well. but it's really literally the person, they're just there to, as the word suggests, just to observe and not to get involved in terms of what's going on. So it's easier for them to understand what's happening and if they need to speak to various board members in the c.

[00:18:36] Joe: Outside of the board meetings, they can, but it's an observatory thing. And then you mentioned non executive directors, again, much more common in the UK in early stage startups or, high growth companies, non executive directors literally don't have any power within the business to do anything. I don't have an executive function, but they're bought in because of their expertise typically.

[00:18:55] Joe: So often you see that in terms of, I mentioned sales and enterprise sales being a common [00:19:00] early board. non executive director position where, you know, SAS business, you want support from sales, you want some introductions to large enterprises, getting a non executive director who's. Previously led a sales function at a large task company.

[00:19:14] Joe: Wonderful, right? Because they're going to have the expertise and also the, the, the routes into the other businesses as well. So yes, you brought, you bring non executives in to help support with often expertise and experience in certain business areas that, that, that the executive team doesn't necessarily have.

[00:19:29] Joe: And the investors probably don't have either. and what's interesting about non executive directors as well is they're, they obviously they're discretion of the board to appoint, but often more often than not, they're appointed in conjunction with the. The CEO and the chairman appoint them as well.

[00:19:44] Joe: Again, power can shift if investors appointing non executive directors as well. It's got to be a balance of what the CEO is most comfortable with in the room of who that needs to be. So again, a non executive appointing non executive directors. As a CEO can be a nice [00:20:00] counterpoint to investors who are sitting on the board of directors as well.

[00:20:04] Joe: So they can be supportive in a different way to you. And again, that typically can be founders who've exited or, executives from larger enterprise companies, but they're there to really help support with expertise at that point and to offer a counterpoint to any of the board members that might be there.

[00:20:18] Rahul: Yeah, and you, we forgot to define the, the chair.

[00:20:23] Joe: Yeah, the chair, I mean, simply the chair is to make sure that the meetings run properly, so that the board meeting is run properly, that everybody gets their voice. Nobody dominates. That everybody's got the ability to ask the questions they want to ask that there isn't too much domination by a particular voice in the room.

[00:20:38] Joe: And often that can happen too much when the CEO is the chair as well, because the CEO can come in, present for 45 minutes and then ask for questions at the end. And, you know, field those questions for the last 15 minutes. And again, that's not an optimum use of time for the board to be there. It's not an, the board's not for an information dump.

[00:20:55] Joe: So what the chair is able to do is to make sure that the CEO adequately prepares for the board meeting, [00:21:00] sends all the board packs out. It was enough time for the board to review them. So then when the board meet, it's not about imparting information from the CEO to the board. It's about making decisions.

[00:21:11] Joe: It's about, well, not making decisions or offering advice, making votes, talking about where the challenges are and the issues are the board needs input on or the CEO needs support and help with. So it shouldn't be, you know, running through the whole. Deck of the sales progress for that month, unless there's heavy problems with the sales process and the board need to evaluate that and look at that and support on that.

[00:21:32] Joe: It really is not a time to impart large swathes of information that should happen up up front. And again, a good chair will make sure that that happens. And we'll set the tone for the board and make sure that everybody's got a voice in that board as well. And, you know, if a vote is needed or a situation is needed, that's the point to do it.

[00:21:48] Joe: And equally often the chair is the person who is, keeping the biggest eye on the governance element of the board, making sure that the governance is happening in the correct way. So, again, when appointing a chair, you want to appoint an experienced [00:22:00] chair who's Done this before who sat on boards before not somebody who's seems like a great person.

[00:22:05] Joe: That's got great experience. They need to have the experience of being a chair to make sure that those board meetings run properly in the right kind of way. They should be again supporting you in terms of doing that. Because again, I see situations where chairs and CEOs are. at loggerheads with each other.

[00:22:20] Joe: And that can be really challenging. Often that's typically more in the US where you have titles like executive chairman, where perhaps the previous CEO stays on as executive chairman. And again, executive and the job title suggests they have an office, they have responsibility. And so it can be a different kind of relationship between an executive chair and a CEO in terms of that shared responsibility at the top.

[00:22:40] Joe: So there's lots of situations where that role changes as the business grows effectively.

[00:22:46] Rahul: Yeah. So, um, ideally, who should be the chair, the founder or the investor? I

[00:22:52] Joe: Well, I think possibly, it depends really. I think neither. I would say it needs to be an independent person who's got the experience of [00:23:00] chairing a board of directors from before. Certainly in the UK, that is much more common that that happens as you have professional chairs who do this. in the U S it's much, much more typical for the CEO to be the chair of the business as well, and to do both of those things together.

[00:23:13] Joe: And that typically lasts all the way into it up through to larger businesses as well, right through to enterprise and public companies. In the UK. Far less common because of the governance aspect of what's going on as well. So typically UK, it tends to be an independent US. It tends to be the CEO doing it.

[00:23:30] Joe: That doesn't mean either one's better because there's a lot of value in getting a good chair on the board to help support you. But on the whole, it's a professional that does that who's somebody who's, who's chaired boards before and has that experience is the person you want to be looking at and doing that kind of thing.

[00:23:44] Rahul: Yeah. And it'd be great if you could also talk about, you know, like at an early, for an early stage startup, for example. what should be the size of the board as in like how many members and, yeah. And who should those members be?

[00:23:59] Joe: [00:24:00] It doesn't need to be too big. I mean, that's the key. It needs to be enough people to, you know, to suit the size of the business that you are. So an early stage startup with no funding could be four people on the board, right? It depends how many founders you've got. If the founders have a seat, all of the founders have a seat on the board.

[00:24:13] Joe: It really depends. It really depends. If you look at larger public businesses, they can have up to 10 It's on the board of directors. It can really change as the business grows to represent the shareholders that are there. But typically it, the size of the board changes with the size of the business. And there's no right or wrong size.

[00:24:29] Joe: Obviously you don't want it too big and you don't want it too small, but that really is just a feeling that you've got to have. And again, a good chair will know that, will have that ability to understand what's missing on that board of directors. So typically it starts small and gets bigger, but it's never, never particularly huge at the end of it.

[00:24:45] Rahul: and also should all, let's say there are four founders, right? For the company, should all of them be on the board?

[00:24:50] Joe: They don't have to be. It depends really on the attitudes of the founders. If the founder wants to be on the board or not, it typically does happen. And this is a whole nother thing that I [00:25:00] often work on with a lot of the founders I work with is what happens when a business grows in terms of the roles of the founders.

[00:25:05] Joe: Cause I see a lot of. Two founder businesses, and I see a lot of three founder businesses, four founder businesses are more unusual with two founder businesses. Obviously, it makes sense to have them both there. And often you see situations where they're like co CEOs, for example, and that can happen. It really changes when the business starts to grow and the founders split into different roles more actively.

[00:25:25] Joe: So certain roles tend to sit on the board more often than not. So obviously the CEO does. C F O does financial chief financial officer. So, and often the C O O can have a either a board observatory or board seat as well. But typically you don't see those, those roles being taken by founder C F O C O O. You see the founder role being taken as a C T O, for example, should the C T O sit on the board?

[00:25:47] Joe: It's a good question. Depends on the founder and their ability and their want to do that. It depends what the CEO feels, what the chair feels, if they're, what they're bringing to the board as well. So possibly they could, they don't have to, it's their choice. But then you see roles that founders often take like [00:26:00] a CPA, like chief product officer or chief marketing officer.

[00:26:02] Joe: Should they sit on the board of directors? Good question. What they bring into the board of directors is something that's appropriate for them to do. Cause typically what you see with those C suite roles anyway, is often they'll rotate through to present to the board anyway. So the board will be familiar with them and will have met them and they'll come in and do maybe 20 minute presentation on that particular business area to the board.

[00:26:23] Joe: CTO will do that one month. Maybe it'll be the Chief Sales Officer, Chief Revenue Officer, whatever that, that role might be coming in each month to do that. And that varies. So, typically early on, founders, yes, they will, co founders will sit on the board. That changes as the business grows and the skill set grows.

[00:26:39] Joe: Because again, not everybody. Needs to be, and not everybody's great at it either. So it's really depending on people's abilities and wants, especially as a founder, if they should sit on the board or not.

[00:26:51] Rahul: Yeah. And I think it would be great, also if you could, if you could, discuss, Or if you could talk about,how to go about doing this, because I feel like [00:27:00] there is always a lot of emphasis on, you know, raising funds, growing a team and growing the, the, the sales and product and stuff like that.

[00:27:08] Rahul: but you don't hear a lot about, you know, consciously, you know, building a, the right board for the company. That's not something that you hear a lot, so,

[00:27:16] Joe: And, and that's, and that's a very good point. And you, and you see that it's never consciously done. It's sort of done as an afterthought or something that kind of creeps up on the CEO, I've got to do this and it happens, but you know, they're really paying attention to what's going on. And it's the most important group in the business because it has.

[00:27:31] Joe: The most power in the business outside of the CEO has the most power and so it has to be a conscious, intentional choice about how and when you build the board, because I've given, you know, some, I've got many challenging horror stories of the board being out of control and that's typically again, because the CEO hasn't spent the time and effort, she hasn't spent the time and effort building the right, putting the right people on the board, shaping the boards.

[00:27:52] Joe: To be the right board for her and for the business as well. And so it can be a real challenge if it's not done properly. And it [00:28:00] only really, you only really get it right when it's gone wrong. And that's not how it should be. So the reality is to start early because a lot, again, a lot of founders have advisors.

[00:28:08] Joe: They'll have an advisor. They'll have advisors that are out there. I'll attract advisors who are people who either believe in the mission. They believe in the founder and often they're offering support. Either for stock or for free or for a low amount of money, they're, they're, they're interesting people who could sit on the board for you.

[00:28:24] Joe: If you wanted to, they could, you could make that more formal, that arrangement to get them to sit on the board as well. Again, they've got to want to do it, but it really is something that you have to intentionally plan and build and make. And again, typically the chair in the UK will help you do that stuff and will be the driving force behind doing that.

[00:28:40] Joe: But again, if you're not, it's not common, like in the U S to have a chair, it can often happen without. Deliberate thought going into the board of directors, I'd say. So your advisors are a great place to start with that and investors as well. Talk to investors about what kind of shape they want to see the board in as well.

[00:28:56] Joe: You know, if you, if you've got a venture, an angel saying, what kind of shape do you [00:29:00] want that board to be? but the most important thing I'd say with anybody who sits on the board is having a strong written agreement about what they should and shouldn't be doing, what their roles are, what their. Where their remit is and where it stops.

[00:29:12] Joe: So having a strong letter of agreement between you and a board member can help shape that as well. So if it is an advisor or it is an investor outside of the term sheet, have a, have an agreement between you and that investor about what their input will be on the board, what their role will be on that board, what they can offer input into or not, what the support can be in the board meetings and outside of the board meetings, but a strong written agreement between.

[00:29:37] Joe: The CEO and each individual board member, again, maybe the chair, each individual board member amongst the board members themselves can really help support and set rather than those expectations strong agreements for what the board should be doing going forward. And often that's never, that's rarely done those letters.

[00:29:55] Joe: It's like, Hey, Hey Jane, do you want to sit on the board? Yeah, I do. I'd love to. Great. Come and sit on the board then. [00:30:00] Brilliant. Let's go. That's it. That's the, that's as far as it goes. It needs to be a lot stronger, a lot more detailed than that as well about what the agreement is about that person sitting on the board too.

[00:30:08] Rahul: Yeah. I guess as a founder, one way to think about this is, you know, just define what you need to get out of the board and then kind of, uh, look at all the people that I can attract, and whether it, whether I can, I love to work with these people and the competency and things like that.

[00:30:27] Rahul: Right. So,

[00:30:28] Joe: it.

[00:30:28] Joe:

[00:30:28] Rahul: And, one other thing, I'm just, curious, like, why do you think, founders don't take this seriously?

[00:30:34] Rahul: Is this the lack of awareness or

[00:30:36] Joe: yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it is because it's not talked about a huge amount. It's not in, you don't see it much in much of the literature about building a startup. You don't, it's an afterthought. And in essence, really, of course, the businesses, the team, the business, the product are the most important things because they are the business.

[00:30:52] Joe: But what the board of directors is, is just some support and shared responsibility for you as a founder. So it doesn't all sit on your shoulders. They're [00:31:00] there to help you make this business success really. And As a founder, I mean, I can't see why you wouldn't want that. You wouldn't want that support and help there, but it's not often seen like that.

[00:31:10] Joe: It's often seen as being a check and balance when actually the reality is, and that seems like something that's hard work or something you don't want to do. He wants more checks and balances. Oh, it's going to slow us down. The reality is, is it shouldn't be like that. And if you do it intentionally, it doesn't have to be like that.

[00:31:25] Rahul: yeah, but, but the, there is definitely some red flags, right. While trying to bring on,board members, what would be some of those, you know, I I've had, somebody. one, one investor charge a board setting fees for a very early stage company. that, I mean, later on I realized that that's a very bad practice. What are some of the other red flags?

[00:31:49] Joe: I would say the biggest red fags often come from angel investors who want to see on the board is they often, and again, that's often less sophisticated angels and [00:32:00] they, they often see it as being something that they need to, or have to do. They've watched too many episodes of shark tank or dragon's den, and they think that's what it's like, right?

[00:32:08] Joe: That they are there to hard, ask the difficult questions all the time. And the biggest challenge I see is often with angel investors wanting a seat on the board. Perhaps even from a small investment or a very early investment, feeling that that's their right. And alongside that comes they're often quite loud voice that they should be on the board.

[00:32:28] Joe: And again, if they're, if they're pushing very hard for a seat on the board early on, alongside that investment, that should be a warning sign to you anyway, because that's, that voice is only going to get louder when they're on the board as well. They're going to have more power to enact in that as well.

[00:32:41] Joe: So definitely strong force to be a board member from an angel is a big warning sign because again, angel investments should not come with a board seat by default. No way. That's not what it's about really. Angels are just out there to help and support you. It doesn't mean they can't be an advisor.

[00:32:57] Joe: Absolutely. They can open doors and be an [00:33:00] advisor for you, but that shouldn't mean that they have to be on the board. And if that, if it feels like that angel wants to be sat on the board because they need that, what's the right word? Validation perhaps. Then that's a really dangerous signal for you as a founder, not to give that to let that happen.

[00:33:13] Joe: So don't give board seats away quickly or easily,

[00:33:17] Rahul: and also like what do you think should be the ideal dynamics between, board members

[00:33:24] Joe: mean,

[00:33:25] Rahul: of like

[00:33:26] Joe: and supportive. I mean, absolutely.

[00:33:28] Joe: It's got number one, it shouldn't be adversarial and it can get like that, right? Again, it can look like a awful episode of shark's tank. It doesn't have to be like that. It's not, doesn't need to be that adversarial. It's got to be something that's supportive and helpful.

[00:33:42] Joe: And of course, challenging don't get me wrong. The CEOs need to be challenged on their strategies and their ways of doing things, but done in a way that's supportive and coming from the right place. And too often it's not. It's seen as being throwing somebody's weight around or their influence around or their ego around in the board.

[00:33:59] Joe: [00:34:00] And the biggest challenge I see often with, with. Often this comes from angels or non executive directors is they'll offer some advice to the CEO goes, well, that's, that's interesting advice. Thank you very much, but I've decided not to do it for these reasons. That's the point where if you're a non executive director, certainly as an angel investor, you can't expect what you say to happen in that meeting to be something that absolutely the CEO then does.

[00:34:23] Joe: Oh, yes. Okay, of course. No problem. We'll do that. The board can advise the CEO to do something, but the CEO doesn't have to listen to that advice. And too often, that's where the challenge comes in, is that dynamic is misunderstood on both sides. The CEO thinks that they have to do the things the board says, and the board thinks the CEO says has to do the things that the board says as well.

[00:34:40] Joe: It's not that point. It's an advisory situation, okay? They're asking the right questions for checks and balances, not because you should do that. And that's where the animosity can come from in a board when that's not fully understood on both sides and egos get bashed by sites. Because again, founders, CEO, founders, egos are big, often angel investors or, advisors on boards.

[00:34:59] Joe: Their egos are quite big as [00:35:00] well. If it becomes an ego thing, then it's dangerous on both sides. So it's really about, of course, it's about scrutiny, but done in a fair, friendly, supportive way. and that's often not the case. And as a CEO, you need to absolutely make sure that each director, your point understands that and, and, and respects that and is like that.

[00:35:22] Joe: And if they're not like that, then don't put them onto the board. And often what I see where this mistake's made is that early investors suggest. Non executive directors to come on the board. And the CEO doesn't put the scrutiny in to make sure that they're the right kinds of people. Angel investors say, Oh, you should have these people on the board.

[00:35:39] Joe: And the CEO is like, yeah, great. And has a quick coffee and goes, yeah, you seem nice. Let's do it. And the reality is, is not, that's not the case. The scrutiny has got to come in from the CEO. And again, if you have a very good chairperson, they should also be doing that stuff as well. So the balance is there, but checking basically just don't let any assholes on your board.

[00:35:55] Joe: It's as simple as that, really. You know, if they're coming in with ego, you don't want ego. You don't [00:36:00] need that.

[00:36:00] Rahul: Yeah. And what are some of the good and bad practices in terms of communication for both founders as well as investors in your opinion?

[00:36:10] Joe: Yeah. I, I, I typically often see founders making the CEOs, making the big mistakes here in terms of this. They early on, you see big challenges, big mistakes, like they over prepare. So they like, you know, send a hundred slide. Deck the night before the board meeting. I've obviously on so many levels. That's better.

[00:36:30] Joe: Then spend the whole board meeting going through each slide in detail. Okay. That's not what a board meetings about. That is like that. That's a presentation. That's a different thing. And so often it's over preparation for the board where they go in over prepared. the CEO spends all of their time just talking and there's very little time for discussion about some of the key issues that are raised in the board itself.

[00:36:50] Joe: so over preparation and giving, not giving the board enough time to prepare. So the CEO is very, very prepared, but the board aren't, sets the dynamic wrongly as well. And the board [00:37:00] can often feel quite resentful of that. So they haven't been given enough time to really digest everything, or they've been given far too much to digest really.

[00:37:08] Joe: Cause again, asking them to go through a hundred pages, you know, a hundred slide deck is okay. Fair enough. Every so often they can do that kind of thing, but they need to know what the key issues are that you want to discuss with them. So here are the five key issues we need to discuss at this board meeting because they can go do their work on those five key issues, not their work on a hundred slides.

[00:37:29] Joe: You know, on slide 64 in footnote three, you said this, what do you mean by that? It's not about that. It's about what the key issues are that need to be discussed in the board. So over preparation is big one. And the opposite is true then is under preparation as well. So this year going in to a board meeting, not having communicated actually really what's going on in the business and that sending warning signs to the, to the Creating an information vacuum on the board and the board like, well, we've not had much information.

[00:37:54] Joe: Everything. Okay. Is everything going? Okay. You're right. I mean, all right. You know, that, that sends a different dynamic when the, the, [00:38:00] the founder or the CEO under prepares for the board as well. So effort needs to go into the preparation. But that needs to be focused on what you want the board to discuss.

[00:38:08] Joe: Nothing like that. So that's a big warning sign is over under preparation by the, by the, CEO, other warning signs as well. It's a, it's a, it's a frightened feeling from the CEO. If they feel scared, not scared. That's not the right word, but they feel tension or they feel like it's a challenge or it's something they've got to overcome where like, Uh, you know, I can do this.

[00:38:28] Joe: It's like, you know, running, it's like going into five rounds with, in the ring or running a marathon, it shouldn't feel like that shouldn't feel like it's a challenge. It should be something you actively look forward to. It's something that's positive for you. So it feels like a challenge to the CEO.

[00:38:43] Joe: You're bringing that energy to the board and the board are going to respond back to you. And with that regard, they're like, Oh, he's been great. She's been very challenging today. Let's, you know, it raises that energy. So you, as the CEO need to bring the right sorts of energy to the board as well. other mistakes I see as well the chair is not very good the chair chair person doesn't know how to chair [00:39:00] a board meeting properly and Sets the tone wrong for them for the meeting.

[00:39:04] Joe: And again, typical us startup, the CEO often acts as chair. They don't know how to chair a proper board meeting. Again, that sets things up differently. So if you are a chair of the board, go get some chair training. It's very easy to find. There's loads of organizations that do it. Go get some training and support to learn how to be a chair.

[00:39:23] Joe: It's not something you can just do as a CEO. Even as a chair, it's well worth going and doing. Training around being a board, a member of a board or a board of director per, a non executive or during executive director of board, go do some training on that as well. There's lots of places to, to, to do that both in the UK and the US.

[00:39:42] Rahul: Yeah. Now let's, I mean, you've, you mentioned, you mentioned board meetings. Now let's talk about how to run board meetings well. Right. So, uh, what are some. Things to do, before the meeting, during the meeting and after the meeting, some best practices and, [00:40:00] things not to do as well,

[00:40:01] Joe: Yeah. I mean, it's about preparation and the right sorts of preparation upfront. The right kinds of board packs are the information, the right level of detail that the board needs to know. And if they need to know a level of detail down, they can get that level of detail. So high level overview of the key, you know, the key aspects of the business and how it's running, right?

[00:40:21] Joe: What are the, key metrics? What are the rocks? If it's, you know, what, if you're using tractional methods to do that, what are the key initiatives you're working on? So it needs to start with an overview of the key, the key elements that the business is working on. And then related to discussion points around each of those.

[00:40:35] Joe: What's the discussion we want to have around each of those things? What's the input we need to have around some of this stuff? You know, we are exceeding numbers. Great. What does that mean for us? We're not meeting our numbers. What does that mean for us? Having an ability for, and a space for focus questions and focus discussion around the challenges that are relevant to the key elements of running that particular business.

[00:40:55] Joe: And that, that can change month by month, quarter by quarter. and, and [00:41:00] giving everybody enough time to prepare for that. So we're giving them a good. 3, 4, at least maybe, you know, as much as you can in terms of time and preparation to prepare for that meeting and sharing all that information ahead of time so that everybody can read it, digest it, do the homework they need to do to come in, feeling fully prepared for that and also as well, not feeling all discussions have to happen in the board as well.

[00:41:21] Joe: If there's a particular focus discussion around, I can. Pull up enterprise sales again. Chief revenue officer is talking to a non executive director in a lot of detail about that. Park that, have that conversation later. So you can always have follow up conversations across each. with each individual board members between the executive and then the board member throughout.

[00:41:40] Joe: So stuff doesn't have to be wholly encompassed in the two hours of the board meeting every month. Putting too much pressure on that meeting is a big mistake. so yeah, really sharing a very clear agenda, what issues need to be talked about and the key information that needs to be discussed ahead of time.

[00:41:55] Joe: So everybody's clear, you've got a strong agreement about what that board meeting is about. And that [00:42:00] can shift from month to month. It doesn't have to be the same thing each time, but it really, and offering space for Discussion is really the key, the key takeaway. They want, you want to have time to talk about these things in the board meeting to get the input that you need.

[00:42:12] Rahul: Yeah. And I guess, uh, you also, it helps, it helps if you also think about what you can, what you can get from the board members as well, right. In terms of help.

[00:42:26] Joe: Yeah, absolutely. And that can often be in the board itself. If you need to have a focused discussion around a subject area, the board can be a place for that, but it doesn't have to be, you know, again, when you start paying your board members for sitting on the board, it's expensive endeavor, it's got a lot of money when you're paying a non executive or a chair to, you can use their expertise outside of that meeting as well.

[00:42:45] Joe: So if you want to have a discussion about. You know, international expansion into Europe, one of your boards, you know, grab some time with them to do that. It doesn't have to be in the board meeting. It doesn't have to be you presenting the strategy and then say, Oh, no, have you thought about this [00:43:00] in the board meeting?

[00:43:00] Joe: Do it ahead of time. You can just outside of the board with those key board members as well. You don't need to put all that pressure on that board meeting as well. And typically what I see is when the pressures on that one meeting a month as well, especially with investors where you don't have any communication with investors outside of the board meeting, investors come with lots of questions they need answering.

[00:43:17] Joe: Because this is the only time they get with you is in the board meeting. So sometimes you need to have space outside of the board meeting to have the conversations you need to have with investors, you know, about the things that they care about. So it doesn't come to a point where they come to the meeting feeling like they haven't had their voice heard, or they haven't asked the questions they need to ask.

[00:43:36] Joe: There isn't enough time in the board meeting because you've not got on the agenda, the stuff they feel important. You can see how that then can cause friction and friction in the board later on down the time. So being, managing a board as a CEO means you've also got to talk to. the board members outside of the board meetings, which seems obviously obvious, but of course you do have to do that because they can offer you expertise to help you, but they've also got questions and support and stuff that they need that may be a [00:44:00] best answered outside of the board meeting, rather than it becoming the board meeting, becoming something that you don't expect or want or need it to be.

[00:44:07] Rahul: So, besides these discussion as a follow up, what are the other things, that let's say a CEO should do after a board meeting?

[00:44:16] Joe: They should follow up on all of it. I mean, the actions from the, from the meeting as well should be, you know, clear. So the CEO needs the chair really, the chair's job is to understand, support what the actions are off the back of the, of the board meeting. Very clear actions are important as well. And that's actions that are particularly clear, like, you know, have a follow on discussion about, Okay.

[00:44:35] Joe: Expansion into Europe with this way. These are the key discussion points to being very clear on the actions off the back of it. Because again, clarity is often lost when you have a heated discussion about particular point where there's disagreement between two people on the board. And that's Either not resolved or is resolved in a way that the action point doesn't necessarily reflect that so, you know, Sue and Jane had this heated [00:45:00] discussion about revenue action was that they need to continue this discussion at some point. That's not a strong action off the back of it. Really? You need to have a strong action off the back of it. Because again, the expectation is that Jane thinks Sue's going to do something and Sue thinks Jane's going to do something or, you know, some.

[00:45:16] Joe: One of your non executives makes some advice and the CEO says, and I'm not going to take that advice. That's to me, to me, loaded into the board actions as well. It's when those X, when those expectations of what my advice means, not followed through afterwards means they come back to haunt you the next time.

[00:45:29] Joe: So I've seen this with investor and CEO recently where the investor was like, I think you need to restructure the senior management team. And CEO was like, tell me more. And they discussed it and the CEO said, look, I don't think so. Maybe we need to review these two seats and we'll do that in six months time. And that action wasn't recorded properly. It was like continued discussion about executive team reorganization was the action. And then the next month followed round and the CEO would thought, well, I said that I was going to review this in the quarter's time. And the investor was like, well, you said you were going to sort this board [00:46:00] thing out by the next meeting and you've not done anything.

[00:46:01] Joe: I've not seen anything on this. So you see the expectations of the action point were not wholly agreed on within that meeting. And that then went to the next board meeting to come up and. People were upset about it. Emotions were high. And however good people think they are about not bringing emotions into the stuff.

[00:46:18] Joe: Of course, they're humans. They do. So it's really setting out clear actions at the end of it and moving expectations into agreements. So there's no expectation about what might happen. There's a clear agreement as to what will happen.

[00:46:30] Rahul: Yeah, I, I think I've seen, David Sachs, tweet about this. Uh, he mentioned something along the lines of like, so usually in a good board meeting, uh, we discuss new important things. Uh, but when it comes to like bad board, bad board meetings, it's usually we're discussing the same thing over and over again.

[00:46:49] Rahul: Something along those lines.

[00:46:50] Joe: A great point, because it's not been resolved properly. You've not got a clear agreement about what you're going to do. And it's just up there in the end. You know, Jeff Bezos says, the biggest stress [00:47:00] comes from the things you're ignoring the most. And if you feel like you're being ignored or you're ignoring somebody, that is stress inducing for both sides.

[00:47:06] Joe: Stress drives emotion and emotional conversations. And when you bring emotion to a conversation, you can't come to an agreement in the same way. So I'm very much about creating strong agreements about things. So you're not going around in circles discussing something. Or, you know, maybe that agreement is even, we will set a time next Tuesday, 4 p.

[00:47:23] Joe: m. to discuss this in detail. We will come up with an action at the end of it, a strong agreement about what will happen next, rather than it just being unresolved, because again, stress comes from unresolved stress comes from ignoring that stress on both sides. It doesn't have to be like that.

[00:47:37] Rahul: Yeah. And you also mentioned about board pack, would like to know, what is board pack and what does it consist and what's the purpose?

[00:47:46] Joe: Yeah, I'm going to lean on the great Matt Mockery. Who's a CEO coach. He's got some great, and I'll send you the link for it. Some great advice on what the board pack should be. He, And a good rule, a good rule to do it is, is the CEO should record a little video about, hey, and this is [00:48:00] often that video they met the, maybe that introduction actually do in the board meeting, here's an overview of what's going on this month.

[00:48:04] Joe: They talk through what the challenges are, what's happened, the history, the stuff, the background that's there. They do that verbally. 'cause again, often they're great at that. It's easier to do them writing it all out. But they, they do, they record a video for the board of directors to give them the insights about what they're saying.

[00:48:18] Joe: I'm saying, you know, I need help with this. I need help with this. I need help with this. They sort of verbally do that in the video to set, you know, set an agreement about what they want that to be. Then the board pack itself in terms of written documentation can be a lot shorter. It can just be background information about a particular.

[00:48:32] Joe: You know, expansion into Europe, for example, here's the numbers. Here's the projections. Here's these things. We want to have a focused, you know, look at this. Are our numbers correct? Where are, are we going in the right direction of countries? You've got a clear idea about what you want to talk about in that meeting as well.

[00:48:45] Joe: Does the board think we are, you know, Europe, you know, all of these sorts of things, these discussion points you can raise. should be set out beforehand in that board pack and any supporting information should be there as well. So if you want to learn more about, you know, why they think they should launch into Italy over Spain [00:49:00] first, the supporting information is there.

[00:49:01] Joe: So you can almost look at people's workings out for why they've made a decision to again, be a check and balance on that. So it needs to be quite high level in terms of a video, a kind of an agenda with talking points and points you want to discuss at that point and any relevant slide deck for that as well, as well as any deeper supporting material that comes alongside.

[00:49:20] Joe: Um, each of these elements that you need to discuss, the background material that's going to help your board, have the proper conversation about what's going on, but I'll link to Matt Mockery's, he's got a great article about what, what needs to be in that particular ballpark. And I'll share that with you today.

[00:49:33] Joe: There's no, you know, he's very good at

[00:49:34] Rahul: Yeah. And also, Who's the organizer and who's in charge of board meetings? Is it always a CEO?

[00:49:41] Joe: Technically, the chair. That's the chair's job. The chair should be responsible for sending all the board packs out. They're the one who disseminates that information. They check the board pack is correct. That the CEO and the executive team prepared the right things. They send that out to the board of directors.

[00:49:56] Joe: They make sure that that happens and it's in the right format in the right [00:50:00] way. That's the chair's responsibility to do that. As I mentioned, often the CEO and the chair are the same role in early stage startups and US businesses as well. So again, that's the role of the CEO in that situation. They've got to go and do that stuff.

[00:50:11] Joe: Often that can fall to the role of the, as the business goes to the chief operating officer to prepare some of that stuff as well. But it's the executive function that happens there. The executive need to prepare the information for the board and to list the questions that they need to one, the chair.

[00:50:25] Joe: Checks that that's the correct. Everything's correct. They're asking the right questions that it's going to be a good beating and that this is happening and make sure that that gets to the board members in time and that the agenda for the board meeting is, is, is strong because again, the chair really is the person who sets the agenda, the CEO can, you know, makes obviously strong suggestions about what should be on there, but ultimately it's the chair that does that.

[00:50:44] Joe: It becomes muddy when the CEO and the chair roles are mixed. And that's often why I see a lot of the U. S. founders that I work with struggle with the board because they're trying to do the CEO job and the chair job at the same time. And the chair job often is a lot of administrative, administrative stuff as well.

[00:50:57] Joe: So getting a good chair to support you on that takes the burden off [00:51:00] you in terms of doing that stuff. So, yeah, typically the chair does that more often than not. It falls to the CEO to do that.

[00:51:09] Rahul: Yeah, and During the meeting itself. It's again the role of the chair to ensure that you know the meeting is going as per the agenda

[00:51:21] Joe: We're talking in circles here, everybody stop, that's what the chair can say, right? They have the ability to step back and do that, that is their power, they own that room. They can say who talks, who doesn't talk, how much time people have got, how much time they haven't got. And again, if that's mixed with the CEO, you can see how that can be challenging on both sides of that as well.

[00:51:38] Joe: So that's why it's advantageous to have a chair in terms of that as well. So to be a CEO in a chair means you're wearing two hats in a meeting. And so it can be difficult to do that. Doesn't mean it's not impossible and it happens all the time. It's just, you've got to be very clear on what you're doing as a chair and what your role is and how you're running the meeting.

[00:51:55] Joe: And that's a different set of skills to being the CEO who's often leading, you know, leading certain parts of that [00:52:00] meeting.

[00:52:00] Rahul: Yeah Yeah, this was great. Uh, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

[00:52:08] Joe: Now I've really enjoyed my time today. I should say as well, I've. The knowledge I've built up today is built very much from the CEOs that I work with, great people I've been talking to around what it means to be a chair. So Nick Sturge, who's a great chair that I've had lots of history working with in the UK here.

[00:52:24] Joe: He's been really helpful informing me. I worked with some great non executive directors, From UK and US have again been very supportive in terms of a lot of the stuff that I've, I've, I've been able to input here today as well. So again, by no means am I an expert in this, I've got a lot of experience I can share, but again, please do feel free to get in touch with me and I can introduce you to experts who can really, really help you with this as well.

[00:52:44] Joe: So, All the knowledge I've bought and built here today is from people that I've spent time learning from, and the CEOs that I've been learning from. So again, if my knowledge is not 100 percent complete, I can absolutely put you in touch with somebody who can give you the information that you need on this stuff.

[00:52:59] Rahul: So, uh, [00:53:00] let's say, uh, anyone, any one of the listeners, wants to get in touch with you regarding the board of directors or anything else, in terms of like running the business, how to do that.

[00:53:11] Joe: I mean, drop me an email if you've got any, if you're curious about Board of Directors, if you're a CEO who's facing a challenge in the Board of Directors, if you're a VC about, wants to talk about what their role is, or an angel about what their role should be on a Board of Directors, just drop me a line.

[00:53:25] Joe: I'm happy to talk to you about that. So my email is joe at mrjoe. uk. Go find my website. It's mrjoe. uk. Drop me a line or find my LinkedIn. I'm Joe Leacher. All the links will probably be down in the show notes here, but get in touch. I'd love to hear from you. And if I've got anything wrong or you've got different experiences to me, I would love to hear from you as well, because I'm always learning about this stuff as well.

[00:53:44] Joe: I'm always curious. So if you've got any great board stories, scary board stories, if I've said something that you don't agree with, just let me know. I'd love to hear from you because I'm always learning on this stuff. Always.