Talent Investing in Building Successful Startups | Rahul from Entrepreneur First

[00:00:00] Rahul Samat: But finding those people and then catalyzing them to become founders or become exceptional founders who go on to create a bunch of value for the world as a whole having bias for action being able to rally a bunch of people with you and having the ambition to think big I think The odds are then you're setting yourself up for success.

[00:00:17] Rahul Samat: The flawed belief system is that most people think that it's not 10%. They think it's like 80 percent of founding can be done by like, you know, learning how to do it before actually doing it. I think the fear of failure manifests into, I don't think I'm ready. I don't know if it'll work. Fundamentally, what you're doing is, Those two exceptional people working together is, it, it's not A plus B, it's A to the power of B because you're so different from each other.

[00:00:41] Rahul Samat: The pool you start with is a curated pool of exceptional people and you're not just starting from a group of people that you might know in, you know, your university or your close friends or in your personal network. We glorify a culture where it is okay and also encouraged to break up early if things are not working out because you're saving yourself a lot [00:01:00] of pain down the road.

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[00:01:06] Rahul: Welcome back to Understanding VC. I'm your host Rahul. Understanding VC is a perpetual MBA on a single subject, venture capital. Today, I'll be having an in depth conversation on talent investing with Rahul Saman. Rahul is a partner and India head at Entrepreneur First. And Entrepreneur First pioneer talent investing and backs exceptional individuals to build startups from scratch.

[00:01:28] Rahul: Now let's talk to Hi, Rahul. Thank you so much for joining me

[00:01:31] Rahul Samat: Hey, great. Great to speak to another hour. Nice to meet you.

[00:01:35] Rahul: Yeah. This is the first time I'm having another Rahul on the show.

[00:01:40] Rahul Samat: Yeah. And that's, that's actually, you know, surprising given how common the name is. So I would have figured I would have been the fifth one or the seventh one, but turns out the first one. so look forward to chatting, chatting about talent investigative.

[00:01:52] Rahul Samat: Yeah. Yeah. So you're a talent investor. I'd love to know more about talent investing. [00:02:00] So, you know, fundamentally, talent investing is a, I guess, a category within the early stage investing spectrum, I guess. And on that spectrum, you've got venture capital, which is also a very early stage form of investing. and, you know, you've got. Accelerators, you've got VCs, and then there's this category that we call talent investing.

[00:02:21] Rahul Samat: fundamentally, you know, our belief is that there are people out there who are so extraordinary that if, you know, they were equipped with the right resources, with the right network, with the right community, even, you know, they could go on to accomplish remarkable things as founders. And talent investing is nothing but the craft or the, you know, talent investing is nothing but finding those people and then catalyzing them to become founders or become exceptional founders who go on to create, a bunch of value for the world as a whole.

[00:02:52] Rahul Samat: I, I basically look at talent investing as, you know, that phase or that category. Where a founder [00:03:00] could, a founder who's very ambitious and wants to maybe go on and create a lot of impact in the world, but doesn't necessarily know what to build or who to build with. you know, working with talent investors such as EF helps them figure those very, very hard pieces of the founding journey, which is going from having the ambition to be a founder to actually becoming one, right?

[00:03:21] Rahul Samat: It's almost like the GTM of entrepreneurship, or founding, so to speak. Does that help?

[00:03:27] Rahul: Yeah. is it any similar to, let's say, a person trying to recruit a big team member?

[00:03:35] Rahul Samat: I'd say it's actually very different from recruitment, in the sense that fundamentally both recruitment and talent investing are about finding talent, right? At the end of the day. but it's very different from recruitment because, you know, in the construct of recruitment, what you're doing is you were maybe looking for a certain employee that fits a certain kind of job or a certain kind of, I guess, skill set, effectively, for a very, you [00:04:00] know, defined job.

[00:04:01] Rahul Samat: which exists in the world. Um, entrepreneurship is not as structured, right? Like entrepreneurship is very, not just very dynamic, but it's also, entrepreneurship is all about like dealing with ambiguity and uncertainty. so in that sense, you know, the people who make for great founders will go on to, you know, create a lot of value in the world.

[00:04:21] Rahul Samat: Those people are going to be much harder to find by virtue of the fact that You don't necessarily have a, a formula or a template that you're looking for. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as deterministic as recruitment. recruitment, let's say if you're trying to recruit for a, I don't know, software engineer, or if you're trying to recruit a product manager, or if you're trying to recruit a marketing professional, right?

[00:04:45] Rahul Samat: Like these are roles which are very well defined and very structured. There's, It's very deterministic. Basically, the kind of expectation of that role founding is not the same. And so, talent investors who look for exceptional people who could be founders [00:05:00] aren't really working with a deterministic formulating, or like a very deterministic thing that they're looking for.

[00:05:05] Rahul Samat: And in that sense, it's very, very different than recruitment.

[00:05:09] Rahul: Yeah. So what is a talent investor looking for? And like, you know, what makes a great talent investor in your opinion?

[00:05:16] Rahul Samat: I guess fundamentally, right? Like what a talent investor is looking for is an exceptional person who could make for a great founder. and, you know, the way, startups work or the way venture capital works as well. Is that most of the value created, in early stage company building, or most of the value created by startups is actually created by a very small number of startups.

[00:05:39] Rahul Samat: So if you take all the cumulative value in the world that is created by companies that are formed, right, like newly formed companies, the power law. Or think of the power law as like Pareto but on steroids, right? Like the power law defines that most of that value, cumulated in that distribution actually is within a very small sample of that distribution.

[00:05:59] Rahul Samat: [00:06:00] And venture or early stage company building actually works on the power law, where what you notice is that there are few companies that will create like outsized value in the world. And in that sense, there are a few founders who actually go on to create. most of the new value created in the world, basically.

[00:06:16] Rahul Samat: Um, and so fundamentally, you know, talent investors are essentially looking for those outliers. they're basically, you know, trying to, find and then help these extraordinary people realize what they're truly capable of and help them achieve, you know, their full potential. and so the, the role of a talent investor is actually figuring out, you know, Where to find these people and also figuring out what makes them exceptional.

[00:06:43] Rahul Samat: So being able to, pick an outlier from a bunch of good people, basically. and then once they have built that relationship and found that exceptional person, the role is then about, catalyzing that person's potential and making sure that, you know, that exceptional individual is [00:07:00] actually reaching their full potential on the back of.

[00:07:02] Rahul Samat: Almost being like a coach to first their careers and then their founding journeys. Um, so that's effectively what a talent investor does. And then you also asked me like, what makes for a great talent investor? And I think it's, that's a fantastic question. so fundamentally, right? Like, by virtue of talent investing in itself, being such a new or nascent, thing in the world, like he has created this category of talent investing, you know, like about a decade ago.

[00:07:27] Rahul Samat: And so. There isn't necessarily like, a set path of what a talent investor might look like or, you know, there isn't necessarily like a particular background or an industry or a qualification that actually makes for a great talent investor. and that's also because of what I said earlier, right? Like, this is dealing with so much ambiguity and by virtue of it just being such a new role in the world.

[00:07:49] Rahul Samat: You know, you can't, you don't necessarily have like a career path for it already. So talent investors don't really, come from a very, you know, well defined persona or like a very [00:08:00] specific, background. but what makes for a great talent investor and what really, um, makes the great talent investor stand out from the good ones is a set of attitudes and behaviors, right?

[00:08:11] Rahul Samat: fundamentally, great talent investors, Are very, very curious. they're curious about how the world works. So they're incredibly curious about just understanding things from first principles and understanding, you know, what makes, the world take or what makes, certain, businesses or technologies happen.

[00:08:28] Rahul Samat: So a high level of intellectual curiosity we've seen to be, To be a great marker for what makes for a great talent investor. I think that's also because, you know, fundamentally founders can go on to build amazing companies or create a lot of value in many different industries. Right?

[00:08:46] Rahul Samat: Like, entrepreneurship or founding is not specific to a different, specific type of industry, right? Like you could build a great company in, any industry in the world or any sector. And so, great talent investors are. So curious about the [00:09:00] world that they are consistently almost upskilling themselves on the latest technological trends or understanding like what makes a certain business work or what makes a certain industry even take and so that.

[00:09:13] Rahul Samat: Trait of being an infinite learner is something that we've seen, work really, really well with, with, with great talent investors. so that's one thing that makes great talent investors. And there's a few such things that we've noticed makes, uh, for a great talent investor. I paused there because, I've shared a lot of detail on that and I'm happy to jump into some of the other things that make a great talent investor or tell you a little more about, about, about the role as well.

[00:09:37] Rahul: Yeah. So the first thing that I want to know, I mean, this has been there only for a decade, but, do you think there is like a power law that's applicable to even talent investors? You know, if you look at a lot of VCs, a very few VC funds make all the money. So, Do you see that, that sort of a pattern?

[00:09:56] Rahul: Like very few talent investors are able to find most of the [00:10:00] great

[00:10:00] Rahul Samat: Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, the reason for that is because there is, there are very few people who go on to actually be, to create like, globally important companies or generationally important companies, right? Like you only have some outliers that will go on to do that. And so. By virtue of the fact that there are very few founders who will actually go on to create great things, there are also going to be very few investors, if you look at even venture, venture works on a power law, there are very few investors that go on to, you know, uh, amass most of the, value created in venture capital.

[00:10:29] Rahul Samat: And I think like, by virtue of the fact that talent investing comes so early and even well before venture capital, that law applies in talent investing as well. And so we're fully convinced that there'll be some talent investors who will be the outliers of talent investing and they'll go on to find the outliers who actually go on to then create generationally important companies.

[00:10:49] Rahul: Yeah. And, what about like soft skills, like the ability to connect with, founders and, you know, build [00:11:00] trust, things like that. Is that important to be a great investor?

[00:11:04] Rahul Samat: absolutely. So fundamentally, right? I think the I think the important thing to the important thing to call out is that you know, the unit of investment that a talent investor is obsessing about is is a person right? It's It's actually an individual. it's not a company. So if you're a, when you know, if you're a vc, then what you really, the, the unit of investment that you're optimizing around is a company, right?

[00:11:28] Rahul Samat: Like that's the entity that you're trying to find your fund, trying to find a great company. but a great talent investors actually try to find an exceptional individual. And so, you know, there's a lot of soft skills that are important. there's a bunch of hard skills as well. but there's a bunch of attitudes and behaviors that are very, very important.

[00:11:43] Rahul Samat: great talent investors are able to build deep relationships with, you know, exceptional people. So great talent investors are able to surround themselves with exceptional people. They're able to build the relevant networks and communities of exceptional people. They know exactly where these [00:12:00] exceptional people aggregate.

[00:12:01] Rahul Samat: They know, you know, how to find them. They know how to, they know how to surround themselves. In, you know, groups of such exceptional people. and so that's, of course, like one very important skill. and you know, like I said, they're very curious about the world. So they're also very curious about what these people are working on.

[00:12:18] Rahul Samat: They're very curious about, Hey, what, you know. What is a certain technological development that's happening in the world right now, which will have a massive impact in the world going forward. Um, and that's another big key, key trait that makes for a great talent investor. So, you know, if you're able to surround yourself with exceptional people, you're able to build deep relationships with those people.

[00:12:40] Rahul Samat: You're able to Meet them at their intellectual, level or like, you know, provide them with intellectual stimulus. Then you're able to build a deep, strong relationship with those exceptional people. And then you're, you know, by virtue of that relationship, there's, There is the, um, I guess [00:13:00] license to then coach those people, right?

[00:13:01] Rahul Samat: Because fundamentally, when someone exceptional identifies that you're exceptional as a talent investor, and you're able to unlock the potential they have, then they trust you, and give you the license to even challenge their belief systems. And that's what it takes, right? At the end of the day, the great founders are founders who know that.

[00:13:20] Rahul Samat: You know, they, they have strong beliefs, but they hold those beliefs very weakly, I guess. So strong beliefs weakly held, and when you have a relationship with a talent investor who's able to almost challenge your beliefs, on the basis of the fundamental trust that's built in that relationship, then those investors, talent investors are able to Challenge belief systems and almost push you or push the founder to greatness, right?

[00:13:46] Rahul Samat: Which is make that founder better every day. Make that founder think, far beyond and think much bigger and almost, upsize their ambition in ways. And so another key, you know, trade or behavior that makes for a great talent [00:14:00] investor is are you able to build that deep relationship? Are you able to almost push exceptional people to greatness, Building a relationship where they're able to trust that you're, you have their best interests in mind.

[00:14:14] Rahul: Yeah. so the, the key here is to, do this also very early, in person's career, right? Like I always think now if I can find the next entrepreneur who could be like a potential like Elon Musk, then my job in life is done.

[00:14:28] Rahul Samat: absolutely. Absolutely. you're absolutely right. Right. fundamentally, by virtue of the phase that we operate in or that talent investors operate in, you are building, you're discovering this outlier, like. The next Elon Musk or the next Patrick Collison, or the next Sachin Bansal, right?

[00:14:46] Rahul Samat: Like you're discovering, this exceptional person very, very early in their career. You're, you're discovering them before, the potential is obvious, right? Because, give those people enough time and their potential will [00:15:00] become obvious. They will, you know, By the time they get to a certain age, the world will know their exception.

[00:15:05] Rahul Samat: So, a lot of the craft is actually unlocking or finding that potential when it's not obvious, when you know that these are outliers, but the world hasn't figured that out yet. and of course, when you're able to do that, and when you're, when you're also able to be one of the variables that, you know, pushes them to greatness, which is you're catalyzing.

[00:15:26] Rahul Samat: the fundamental underlying potential. The potential is there, but you're catalyzing it and catalyzing it means you're able to accelerate that person becoming the exceptional person that they were anyway going to become. by virtue of that, there is a very, very handsome reward to that, right? Because you created value for them, for the world.

[00:15:44] Rahul Samat: Um, and for, you know, like let's say shareholders of a company like EF. and so, yeah, these are very rewarding, careers and by rewarding, I mean, they're professionally rewarding. They're personally rewarding. It's very rewarding to see a founder go from, let's [00:16:00] say like a student you met on campus and then like within a few months, see them become an exceptional founder who's raising a very large seed round and, you know, creating so much employment in the country.

[00:16:10] Rahul Samat: That journey in itself is so rewarding. So, so finding these people early, is definitely the way to go. And, and, and the way this business works.

[00:16:21] Rahul: Yeah. And you also mentioned about as a talent investor, one of the job is to. Figure out where you can find these talent and also the characteristics of a great founder Yeah, so, where do you find these great

[00:16:36] Rahul Samat: Yeah. And that's, you know, that's a big, big, piece of the talent investor role, right? So every talent investor, has, you know, like a very, I'd say like unique approach to this and, you know, a very, I guess, personalized, way of going about the craft. and we're strong believers of, you know, working for first principles, just like Extraordinary Founders, EF also [00:17:00] operates on that.

[00:17:00] Rahul Samat: And so, you know, each talent investor would have a thesis, around where they would find these exceptional people. and then they would go in the world and test their thesis out. And, you know, approaching it in the very first principles and thesis driven way then helps them update their mental models on, hey, you know what, I had a thesis that I would find exceptional people in this place, geography sector, stage of life, or with these markers, etc.

[00:17:25] Rahul Samat: Like thesis could be on, on many dimensions. what's beautiful about going about it a thesis driven way is then talent investors update their mental models based on what they're seeing in the world When they apply their thesis and then they're able to update their thesis so, you know where you find them There is no straight answer And if if there was a straight answer then this would be a very easy thing to do and any anybody in the world Could do it.

[00:17:46] Rahul Samat: but this is the kind of um, I guess career path where you know, you're almost Building a craft and building a taste for it by approaching it in a very unique way and working from where you think you will find exceptional people.

[00:17:58] Rahul Samat: uh, you also asked me like, [00:18:00] what are the characteristics of a great founder or like, you know, what do talent investors look for? And again, right? Like this isn't, necessarily a formulaic approach, and it shouldn't be because we are dealing with people and their potential.

[00:18:14] Rahul Samat: And so it can't be, but fundamentally. If I were to look at all the things that we believe make for a great founder or, you know, what we look for in talent, I think they fall into one of two buckets. the first one being ambition. So, you know, our strong belief is that. Ambition is a force multiplier, right?

[00:18:35] Rahul Samat: Like it's, it's basically like an amplifier of sorts. ambition amplifiers and outlier, an outlier person's potential or their talent, basically. ambition is what enables them to build at scale and to do things that most other people can't even think about or don't think is possible. And we know this because we've seen it like we've seen this over and over over the last decade of talent investing So, you [00:19:00] know the most exceptional founders have you know, like an innate urge or like an innate, um, drive to achieve, very, very difficult things to build, around hard problems.

[00:19:14] Rahul Samat: They have like this urge to, or they're obsessed basically with very big ideas. They're obsessed with making A big impact in the world. they're very, very conscious about their time in the world. and they're basically bored by, you know, anything that's obvious or anything that's, you know, pretty straightforward, right?

[00:19:32] Rahul Samat: and so fundamentally we believe that ambition is one of those vectors. And this is something that we really look for in the founders that we back. and so. Ambition is one vector, which we believe is a very important trait that makes for a great founder. And the other, you know, are a set of behavioral traits, which I would bucket into what we call like founder aptitude, right?

[00:19:50] Rahul Samat: Like, and this would fundamentally be things such as, Hey, um, is a founder able to, you know, get great get exceptional people [00:20:00] to follow that, right? Like, we believe that this is a very important trait for, you know, somebody to be able to build, meaningful impact in the world because, you know, it's very hard to build a, globally important or generationally important company by yourself.

[00:20:14] Rahul Samat: So if you're not able to rally exceptional people behind your mission, then it's going to be really, really hard. and so there are a bunch of like, I'd say like founder aptitude, uh, traits of sorts or founder aptitude. I guess behaviors, which, you know, fall into either like, a set of hard skills or soft skills, and I won't go into each, each one of those, but, you know, you, you definitely see, maybe if you're a, you know, if you're a someone who aspire to be a CEO, you know, we'd expect that to be, you know, some, commerciality or some commercial thinking in the way you, you go about, doing your work or if you are a, a technical.

[00:20:49] Rahul Samat: Builder, then, you know, there is a certain level of technical ability, which gives, gives one the confidence that you'd make a great founder. so yeah, so there's a set of like, I guess, like founder aptitudes or traits, [00:21:00] but I would definitely over index on ambition. And that is what, I think is the, most important, I guess, variable, or that's the most important force multiplier that differentiates the great outlier founders from the good ones.

[00:21:15] Rahul: Yeah, so personally Um, is there a particular trait that you think is like a sign of a great founder? Now, um, some people have this responsiveness, is something that a lot of people, uh, in California say has like a great sign. is there, personally, is there something that you think is a sign of

[00:21:37] Rahul Samat: Yeah. I think like if I were to boil it down, right, I think it comes down to not just like maybe two or three that, I have seen to be, probably more, uh, more, more of a deterministic, or at least more of a common denominator between, you know, some of the most exceptional founders that I've seen.

[00:21:54] Rahul Samat: I, I definitely think like having it being somebody who can, have,who can create like followership of sorts, like have [00:22:00] exceptional people who, want to work with you, want to work on what you think, will be a reality in the future, right? Like, founders have big visions and founders have, big aspirations, but if they can't take along exceptional people.

[00:22:14] Rahul Samat: With them on their journey, then I don't think they're going to be able to accomplish a lot. So I've seen that as one very, very important trait, like being able to have the followership of exceptional people who want to work with you, is something that I think is extremely important. I think, it's also very important to have like a level of, you know, like a bias for action of sorts.

[00:22:31] Rahul Samat: I've seen a lot of great founders who are very ambitious, but. Don't necessarily have the bias for action. And what bias for action means is, you know, basically finding that balance between thinking and doing right. the best founders, straddle between those things. They straddle between thinking big and then like with bias for action, going and doing something, learning from it, and then updating what they're thinking.

[00:22:53] Rahul Samat: Right. so I think like. Having bias for action, being able to rally a bunch of people with you and having the [00:23:00] ambition to think big. I think if you have those things as like core fundamental markers, I think you're the, then you're setting yourself up for success.

[00:23:08] Rahul: Yeah. Definitely. There is a very, it's very rare to find that combination

[00:23:13] Rahul Samat: it's very hard. It's very hard because you, you know, you see a lot of founders who are very ambitious, but don't have the bias for action. And these are founders who will think a lot. They'll, you know, they'll ideate, Oh, the world should have X or Y and they have great ideas, but, I don't think, you know.

[00:23:26] Rahul Samat: They have the execution jobs then because the bias for action is lacking. And then there are great founders who have both, but don't have followership. And then, you know, what ends up happening is you're limited by the impact you can create because you don't have like a great team that's making your vision a reality.

[00:23:42] Rahul Samat: Right. So I think it's very important to have all of those, and it's very hard to find all of that together.

[00:23:46] Rahul: Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think are some of the reasons why people hold back from like trying

[00:23:55] Rahul Samat: Yeah. Um, so, you know, I've been very fortunate to, have worked with a lot of [00:24:00] founders, to, you know, on, you know, have my own founding journey as well. Right. So, I, I am somebody who can relate to this question, in great measure because I was someone who, started up, uh, after, uh, after quite a bit of time.

[00:24:15] Rahul Samat: Like I had a traditional career. I started my career as an investment banker. I worked in finance for a few years. I worked in strategy, I did a little bit of consulting. I even worked at like, a tech startup. and so fundamentally, right, you know, what I've noticed is, founders, founders or founding in itself, is a very.

[00:24:37] Rahul Samat: Of course, it's a very high risk place. So it's not for everybody. but I think there are a lot of misconceptions around founding. I think there are a lot of, I'd say like false beliefs about about entrepreneurship, right? And, and, and coming from someone who has been a founder, but also, Oh, probably lived some of those beliefs.

[00:24:55] Rahul Samat: I think I can give you like some first hand examples. So a lot of founders believe [00:25:00] that, you know, they need a certain, set of skills before they are ready to be founders, right? this is something that I've seen a lot. and fundamentally, I think the concept of being ready is a very flawed concept.

[00:25:09] Rahul Samat: In my opinion, founding is like, you know, it's like swimming, maybe, or, you know, it's like, I don't like riding a bike, right? There's only so much you can learn theoretically, like, there's only so much you can prepare yourself for that, right? Till you don't sit on the bike, you don't find a balance, you're not really going to be able to ride a bike.

[00:25:28] Rahul Samat: So I'd say like, I'd say like you can prepare yourself for 10 percent of what founding will be or what entrepreneurship will be. And I think the, the flawed belief system is that most people think that it's not 10%. They think it's like 80 percent of founding can be done by like, you know, learning how to do it before actually doing it.

[00:25:46] Rahul Samat: and so like, I have spent a lot of time trying to pick up skills or like. being ready before jumping in only to realize that, you know, you're not ever going to be ready because there's no such thing as being ready. And the [00:26:00] only way to do it is actually by doing it. And so, you know, I would definitely challenge the, Hey, I'm not ready.

[00:26:06] Rahul Samat: This is not the right time. I think a lot of that is coming from a fear of failure as well. because, you know, fundamentally there is a lot of failure in entrepreneurship, which is why it's not for everybody. and so, I think the fear of failure manifests into, I don't think I'm ready. I don't know if it'll work.

[00:26:20] Rahul Samat: I want to try doing this while having a job and, you know, once it works, then I will quit my job. or what happens if it doesn't work? Will I ever get employed again? Like I think all of this is a fear of failure that manifests into these misconceptions about founding.

[00:26:35] Rahul Samat: Yeah. The fear of failure, I think is a big problem. Uh, in a sense, like this is what leads into, like a founder trying to work on an idea for a longer than he should, he or she should, and things like that. Because you are. I'm not willing to accept that this something is not working,Absolutely.

[00:26:58] Rahul: and also like, [00:27:00] what other reasons do you think,fear of failure, kind of.

[00:27:05] Rahul Samat: so fundamentally, right. I think, the fear of failure is also very cultural thing, right? Like it comes from which, um, what society, considers to be failure because at the end of the day, we're very social animals, I guess. Right. and so, you know, like if you're somebody who's born in maybe maybe born in America, you know, you, you, you would look at failure very differently than if you were born in the east because, you know, countries like ours or even far east in the far east, right?

[00:27:32] Rahul Samat: failure, at let's say, like. company building or doing something of your own is looked at very differently than in the West. In the West, actually failure is rewarded, right? I think this is changing. This is a cultural shift that I think is happening, especially in our country. but the fear of failure does manifest into, you know, these things such as, Hey, I need to be ready, which means I need a certain, Set of skills, right?

[00:27:55] Rahul Samat: Like I need to first learn to do a and then be and founders go about it in a very checklist of [00:28:00] invasing. Once I learned this, then I learned this. Once I learned this, then I learned this. and again, that's all preparing for the 10%. So I would not over index on that. and then, you know, fear of failure manifests into things such as, oh, well, but if I Okay. and I fail, will I ever get a job again? You know, it's going to look bad on my, on my resume. I mean, like I would argue that starting up is actually real world experience that makes you more employable than you were before you started up because you've actually tried something and learned a set of skills that you can't really learn in a steady job.

[00:28:32] Rahul Samat: so I don't think it's, makes you. Any less employable actually makes you more. If you ask me, I think you get a lot, you, you would be eligible to get a lot more responsibility. If you had the experience of starting a company of working in ambiguity, these are like very hard skills of leading a team, right?

[00:28:52] Rahul Samat: of being responsible for, maybe an investor's capital. So I think these are all great skills that make you, um, that are [00:29:00] very valuable. And so I don't think like, not having a job, not being able to get a job, should be something that I would be worried about. and then, you know, there are other, um, I guess misconceptions about starting up, for example, like some founders believe that, you know, they don't maybe have the right network or the right.

[00:29:18] Rahul Samat: access to capital, they may not, they think they may not have a network of VCs or they don't have enough money saved up to start up. I mean, you'd be really surprised at how little it takes to, to get a company off ground today and how accessible entrepreneurship is. you'd be really surprised at, you know, when it comes to even access to capital, you'd be really surprised at the appetite for risk in the world today.

[00:29:42] Rahul Samat: and it's really not that hard to raise capital and with. you know, with a product like entrepreneur first, or with a place like EF, you know, it's basically as low risk as it gets because, you know, in the EF model, we even have a stipend that a founder gets while they're in the program. So there's no financial [00:30:00] risk, right?

[00:30:00] Rahul Samat: Like you're, you're getting like a monthly stipend that covers basic necessities that you might have. and so fundamentally, right? Like I think not having enough capital or not being ready or not. Having an idea. That's another one. Right. A lot of people think that till I don't have the perfect idea. I cannot start up.

[00:30:16] Rahul Samat: I think that's another like, misconception because, you know, there is no such thing as a perfect idea. I think like we have the media to blame for this because the media almost makes the founding journey as one where you've had these eureka moments and you suddenly have a light bulb moment with an idea.

[00:30:31] Rahul Samat: Well, that's not how startups work. Um, you actually form and develop your idea by talking to your customers. And it's a thing that evolves over a period of time and you then build a network around your idea. You don't really have a network when you start, you don't need one actually to start up. and so, you know, I would really think about those things because I think all of those misconceptions come from a fear of failure and I think like we are.

[00:30:54] Rahul Samat: in a world and a society now where failure is good. It actually makes you stronger. It makes you, [00:31:00] it hones your skills and many skills basically, and makes you ready for, bigger professional challenges.

[00:31:05] Rahul: Yeah, the one thing that I wanted to, uh, ask you is like, what do you think is the, you mentioned about the cultural sort of norms, but what do you think is the role of, your family and your childhood? So this is something, so I listened to another podcast for founders, uh, podcast, so the common theme among every great personality is their childhood

[00:31:29] Rahul: And, and again, um, I saw this tweet from Kunarsha today, all exceptional success may be a coping mechanism. So you're probably a product of your childhood, right? So

[00:31:43] Rahul Samat: I do think that, you know, um, I think there are certain I guess the certain skills, right? That make you better at the game of entrepreneurship. So like for starters, this is not for everybody. I don't think everybody in the world should be a founder because it's a very, it is a high risk, high [00:32:00] reward kind of journey.

[00:32:01] Rahul Samat: you know, it is a. Journey where you're dealing with ambiguity, right? So, by design, you're bringing something new in the world, right? Like you're introducing the world to something new, you know, even if you're, even if you're building something, which is, let's say like another version of something that exists, you still like bringing a new entity or a new brand into the world or a new experience or a new product into the world.

[00:32:23] Rahul Samat: And, that by design is hard because, you know, like. Change. Like that's just human nature. So, you know, it's not easy. And so of course I think like, you know, if you've gone through a set of journeys that me. Resilient to be a founder, because, you know, like I guess, when I said, coping mechanisms come from adversity.

[00:32:45] Rahul Samat: And so if you've gone through certain adversity in life that make you more resilient, or that, you know, have helped you hold a few skills that make you. that make you more resilient through this very difficult journey. I think that does set you up for success. I don't, I, I [00:33:00] don't think I'd go as far as saying that, you know, your childhood will define if you'll be a great founder or not.

[00:33:04] Rahul Samat: I think it's just a set of adversity and, and, or not even adversities. I think it's just a set of skills. You can pick those skills up at any point. I don't think it's only your childhood. I think what happens is it's, extreme in those cases, because You know, those formative years have a, have a big impact on who you become as a person.

[00:33:21] Rahul Samat: but we've seen great founders, you know, who've had very good childhoods, and like become exceptional founders because, you know, they have the ambition to be a great founder. So I, I don't think you need to have an adverse childhood, but I do think that, you know, Being resilient is one of those very, very important traits.

[00:33:37] Rahul Samat: And so, you know, whatever helps you get there, including like experience, or even a strong education, could, could set you up for success.

[00:33:45] Rahul Samat: Yeah, I don't think adverse, situation help you be on a certain level because you know, when somebody starts to do well, a lot of adversities just go away, right? Like, They continue to do

[00:33:56] Rahul: you still need the ambition to continue to, [00:34:00] yeah. And, you mentioned about, you know, this is not for everybody.

[00:34:04] Rahul: So how should we decide, you know, whether it's, it's the right

[00:34:08] Rahul Samat: Yeah. So, you know, as I mentioned, right, I don't think entrepreneurship is for everybody because fundamentally, you know, it requires a certain level of, being comfortable with risk or, you know, being, okay with ambiguity, et cetera. Right. I think it's the sort of thing which you discover when you actually take a shot at it.

[00:34:24] Rahul Samat: I don't think anybody should subscribe to it, you know, without actually taking a proper shot. Right. So, you could theoretically argue that, hey, You know, can I be a founder after spending a decade in a startup, right? Like that could be one argument someone could make. Does that make me, ready to be a founder?

[00:34:40] Rahul Samat: Or does that prepare me to be a founder? or does that tell me what it's like, right? I think it helps in the sense that, you know, being around other founders is obviously going to rub off in ways in which you pick up what it takes to be a great founder. So I think there is some value in working at maybe a startup, let's say.

[00:34:56] Rahul Samat: Or around exceptional founders. There's definitely some value in that, [00:35:00] but I don't think, you know, that working at a startup is necessarily founder practice. Let me put it that way, right? Because the only person in that startup who actually learning how to be a founder, not even is a great founder is the founder itself.

[00:35:14] Rahul Samat: So you might go to a high growth startup and you know, you might even be at a very late stage pre IPO startup. Well, guess what? That founder is also going through a journey, but they're still learning. They're still learning what it takes to be a founder. and so I think there's insulation when you're in those roles, you know, you might, you might be working at a seed state startup or a CZ startup, but it's the founder's responsibility to insulate, insulate you from a lot of the.

[00:35:40] Rahul Samat: you know, what they, what they are dealing with, right. Which could be, Hey, is there enough capital for this business to thrive? Right. do we have the right talent, to make this work? do our customers know, you know, what problems we solve for them? Are we solving those? Problems in a way where our customers are finding and deriving enough value.

[00:35:57] Rahul Samat: That's the founder's role, right? Like to figure those things [00:36:00] out and, and so much more. And so you're insulated from that. You know, you might go and work at a startup and, you know, be an entrepreneur inside the startup, but well, guess what, you don't really then raise any capital, right? Like you're getting the capital because the founder has gone out and raised the capital.

[00:36:14] Rahul Samat: So fundamentally, you know, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's for everybody, but I also don't think you can figure this out until you actually give it a shot. And I think. The best way to figure if it's for you or not is to find the least friction way to give it a shot. And by least friction, I mean the path that will have the least impact to whatever trajectory you're on.

[00:36:36] Rahul Samat: Right. if you're able to find out in a reason, like if it doesn't take you a few years to figure out if this is for you or not, then I think it's, it's a no brainer, right? Like if you could figure this out in six months, if I told you, Hey, now you have six months in which, you know, you will be able to figure it out.

[00:36:52] Rahul Samat: If this is for you or not, if you're cut out for it, if you enjoy doing it or not, and guess what, you know, if it doesn't work out, you'll be back on [00:37:00] whatever path you were on. I doubt you will become obsolete in six months. There's, it's very unlikely that in six months, the world doesn't value your skills, whatever you had before you started out.

[00:37:10] Rahul Samat: But if I told you it's not six months, it's six years. Now, suddenly, you know, there is. a risk involved in even trying. So I think the best way to test is to find these low friction ways. And like, I'd love to talk about EF because that's one such way. but these low friction ways in which you can test for yourself, if it is for you, because if it is for you, then you're possibly on the path to doing the most rewarding work of your entire life.

[00:37:35] Rahul Samat: You're on the path, possibly. you know, to figure your life mission or your, you know, reason to be right or your, your, your purpose in life, you could be on the path to that. And that's not something that all of us, are lucky to even discover, you know, in a, in a lifetime, let alone in six months.

[00:37:52] Rahul: Yeah. And one of the major points of friction in building something is like finding somebody, [00:38:00] uh, complimentary skillset, right? Like, and I've, I've heard so many people say that that is the USP of, of EF, from people who have like, been in the program. So, yeah. But internally, do you think that that's the value proposition

[00:38:17] Rahul Samat: I think that's one of the value propositions. I wouldn't say it's the only, or the most unique one. I, I guess the way I would look at it is, you know, I think the first question to ask is, do you need a founder? Like, do you need a co founder? Right. That's the first, if I was looking at this from first principles, my, my opinion on that, or my experience of seeing great founders around me on that is that.

[00:38:37] Rahul Samat: By virtue of how hard this is, or by virtue of just, how intense the journey is, and also by virtue of the diverse set of skills that you need to take a new thing or a new company or a new product off the ground, it's very hard, you know, or it's very taxing for one person to do justice to the skill set that's required. [00:39:00] And also the intensity that it comes with, you know, Entrepreneurship has a lot of highs and a lot of lows. having been a founder myself, I can tell you that there are days where within a few hours, you go through like an emotional rollercoaster where in the morning, you're like, that's it. Like, this is it.

[00:39:17] Rahul Samat: We are going to be this, we're going to be very successful. This is the, you know, the next best thing after sliced bread, like. That's it. We're on it. And in like two hours, you're basically, you feel doomed. You feel like there is absolutely like you, you question why you're doing this. Like you ask yourself why you're putting yourself through, um, such a hard thing.

[00:39:36] Rahul Samat: And then maybe later in the day, you're back again on the emotional high. So this is not easy basically, right? to have somebody with you, who's just as vested, because keep in mind, your co founder is going to be in the business. as vested as you are emotionally, financially, mentally, like they're just completely all in.

[00:39:54] Rahul Samat: There are, you know, there are, you won't share that relationship with your investors. You will definitely not share [00:40:00] that relationship with your employees. You won't share that relationship with your family even, but to have somebody who is in it with you as a true partner, It goes a long way in dealing with the adversity.

[00:40:14] Rahul Samat: And then of course, what it also means is it makes the intensity a little, better, right? Because you're not expected to do everything, right? Like you could divide and conquer and have, um, be with a co founder who's complimentary to your own skillset. Keep in mind, it's also really hard for like one person to have all the skills needed to, you know, build a great product and sell it.

[00:40:33] Rahul Samat: And so if you're strategic about who you work with, then you could be complimentary in ways in which you're greater than the sum of your individual parts. And, you know, your co founders making you both more than two X productive basically. Right. And that's, I think, where it's important to have a great co founder.

[00:40:52] Rahul Samat: And I think it drastically increases the odds of, of starting up and being successful at it. when it comes to [00:41:00] EF, I think, you know, at EF, we found a very structured way in which. We enable this because it's so important. It's a very structured way in which we help people figure who the right complimentary co founder for them is, you know, help them understand, like, is that co founder actually pushing you to greatness?

[00:41:17] Rahul Samat: Are they making you the best version of yourself, right? Are you greater than the sum of your individual parts? So we've got a very structured way in which we do that. And also, I guess like the most important thing. In this aspect is if you're convinced that you need a co founder, you want the best co founder in the world for you, right?

[00:41:36] Rahul Samat: Like you don't necessarily want to pick the first person who's available, in your network, or, you know, they may not necessarily be the person who is the right co founder for you. So EF does that as well, which is, you know, like fundamentally puts together this room of, you know, 30, are possibly the most ambitious and exceptional people in the country.

[00:41:58] Rahul Samat: And so when you are in that peer [00:42:00] group, you're basically getting access to potentially the best co founder for you. Not the, not the best from who, you know, on your own.

[00:42:08] Rahul: Yeah. So, you know, I, I think I've heard you mentioned this, uh, that when you have a co founder it doubles your productivity. Is that something that, you've internally gauged, like, so why is that? Is it because of the support that, founders have from each other plus the complimentary skills or is there

[00:42:29] Rahul Samat: Yeah. So see, fundamentally, you know, what's happening is you are a product of your experiences and, Imagine if you're an exceptional person, you have a certain set of experiences, you have a certain set of skills that you're great at. if you're paired up with another person who's a product of different experiences and, you know, brings a very different perspective to the table, is complementary to your skills, and is vested with you in the journey, is maybe somebody who shares the same value system.

[00:42:59] Rahul Samat: So you have the [00:43:00] same beliefs, let's say, like in how to go about building a company or what kind of, behaviors you want to see from, you know, yourselves and your employees or have the same level of ambition. Fundamentally, what you're doing is those two exceptional people working together is. It's not A plus B, it's A to the power of B because you're so, different from each other.

[00:43:19] Rahul Samat: And that's where it's important to be complimentary. we've seen productivity be multifold. It's not even 2x. It's, you know, it's far more. and I think the best measure in this is when you see a single founder and the pace at which they progress, the kind of value they create. You can even quantify like what kind of value you create.

[00:43:37] Rahul Samat: To see that in. Multiple single founder journeys and multiple like dual founder journeys, where it's exceptional co founders. It's drastically different. It's worlds apart, basically.

[00:43:47] Rahul: Yeah, I'm very curious to know your structured process in matching

[00:43:52] Rahul Samat: Well, it sounds like you should come join one of our programs because that's the best way to find out. but yeah, here's how I would look at it, right? It's [00:44:00] a, think of, think of our process as an iterative way to go about, team building and company building. Like I said, you know, very first principles in our approach.

[00:44:08] Rahul Samat: We're very thesis driven. and so fundamentally we help, let's say you're a founder who joins one of our programs. you're now surrounded by. You know, you're now in a room and a peer group of 40, 50 other exceptional individuals. These are probably some of the most ambitious individuals in the country who are all ready to start up as in their, their, their intent to start up, start a company right now is very high.

[00:44:32] Rahul Samat: So then none of them are doing this part time. In fact, a lot of them have actually left very significant opportunities to be in that room. You know, they've, they've given up some jobs or given up the, ability to publish more papers or, you know, given up like very important things in life to come and spend a few months to build companies.

[00:44:51] Rahul Samat: So, you know, you're in this. Peer group of exceptional people who all want to create value in the world. and then fundamentally by being in that peer [00:45:00] group, you're also constantly, you know, your ambition is being upsized because you're surrounded by others who are consistently, you know, doing great work.

[00:45:07] Rahul Samat: So you see that in the inspiration and the second order effects of that are incredible. the process is that, you know, you'd spend, sometime with some of the people in that group of, you know, in, in that room or in that cohort, and you'd go about iteratively testing out teams and testing out different businesses.

[00:45:25] Rahul Samat: Um, some people find the perfect co founder for them in their first attempt, where they work with one person over a few weeks. Some people take, you know, four attempts, some people take seven. but what happens is in. Each iterative attempt of team building, they gain a lot and they gain firstly about themselves.

[00:45:44] Rahul Samat: Like they learn things about themselves as founders, but they also learn a lot about, you know, what they're looking for in a co founder or what actually complimentary skills. Truly mean, right? Like where, where does the compliment actually happen? They pick this up. So every team that formed is [00:46:00] formed, on the, uh, cumulative strength of, you know, what you've learned in the process for, it's a very iterative, approach to company building and to finding the right co founder for you.

[00:46:12] Rahul Samat: But the fundamental of it is the pool you start with is a curated pool of exceptional people. And you're not just starting from a group of people that you might know in, you know, your university or your close friends or in your personal network.

[00:46:25] Rahul: So, the initial pairing, is it something like, you know, a person who can build and a person who can sell, pairing

[00:46:34] Rahul Samat: Well, you know, that's one format that works really well because those are two core fundamentals of what's needed in the early stage. So yeah, you do see some pairings that are on that journey of. Hey, there's somebody who is more commercially minded and there's somebody who's maybe more technical. And so that's a pairing that works, but that's not the only pairing that works.

[00:46:53] Rahul Samat: you know, we've seen like two technical co, sorry. We've seen two technical co-founders as well who, you know, end up being,[00:47:00] co-founders or teammates basically end, they end up. Um, some of them along the way, pick up the skills that they may, they might not have because they have a strong growth mindset.

[00:47:11] Rahul Samat: So I wouldn't say there is necessarily like, you know, a guidance around this. Uh, what's most important is to work with somebody who is. Pushing you to be the best version of yourself, like you might have the most complimentary skills. You may actually, you know, be very aligned in your value systems as well.

[00:47:31] Rahul Samat: But if you're not able to push each other to be. creator every day, right? If you're not able to have hard conversations, then we've seen that those teams don't necessarily go on to do, world changing things because it takes like a certain level of, you know, it takes a certain, you need to be operating with very high ambitions and you need to be operating in a place where you're able to do, to do justice to hard problems.

[00:47:56] Rahul Samat: And it happens by pushing each other.

[00:47:58] Rahul: Yeah, [00:48:00] what about things like, you know, the values that they have as a person? Is that like a thing that you've seen founders look at each

[00:48:11] Rahul Samat: Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, right, like it's, a value system is important, not just individually, but also to the kind of company you want to build, right? So if two founders have very different ideologies, right? Like, for example, let's, let's, let's take an example. If one founder has an approach where they're very conscious about the capital or the way they spend their capital, let's say they're very, very, they oriented in a way where they want to optimize and like.

[00:48:37] Rahul Samat: You know, spend money in a very different way than another founder who believes that the way for their business to succeed is actually by them, spending a lot of capital and maybe attracting a certain kind of, customer or like standing out and, you know, breaking from the clutter, right. Uh, by spending capital, these are just, there's no one right way.

[00:48:56] Rahul Samat: It's just different ideologies. So, It's kind of like in a [00:49:00] marriage, right? Like if you don't agree on how you want to manage your finances, it's going to be very hard for the couple to be in a successful marriage. and so how founders want to behave in their companies, what kind of, what kind of behaviors they want to set as examples for their employees, how they want to go about building the company.

[00:49:19] Rahul Samat: If those are not aligned up, then those don't make for strong teams. Um, and fundamentally, I think what ends up happening is, you know, When there's no value alignment, those, those teams or those companies will eventually reach a point where they will break. it's like a bad marriage basically. what EF does beautifully is it front loads all of that, which means if you're going to discover three years later, after you raise a lot of money and you have all these customers that you actually cannot work together.

[00:49:47] Rahul Samat: that is going to hurt you and cost you a lot more than if you discover that in two weeks of working together. So internally at EF, we actually glorify having these hard conversations. We glorify [00:50:00] a culture where it is okay. And also encouraged to break up early. if things are not working out because you're saving yourself a lot of pain down the road and celebrate.

[00:50:10] Rahul Samat: this, and that's why it's an iterative way of team building, because a lot of founders will end up, you know, going through four or five team breakups before they find, the founder that works for them. And what about the stage of life where the founder is, you know, one person is single and young and one person is, you know, older plus family Yeah, absolutely. Right. Like, I think, you know, fundamentally life stage is a very important factor in, how you go about building your company, right? I think the older you are, maybe, you know, you've got, a set of responsibilities, you've got a family, possibly you've got aging parents.

[00:50:48] Rahul Samat: and I guess the younger you are, you have more freedom maybe by design, right? Because your life is in a place where. Your choices are just your own. You aren't necessarily as, dependent on other people. [00:51:00] Um, so, you know, one way in which, and so to answer your question, these are very important things that actually, matter a lot when people, you know, pick their co founders.

[00:51:10] Rahul Samat: And I think, you know, one way in which EF structures this, in our products as well, is that we've got a graduate. product or a graduate cohort, for example, which is just early career individuals. Like you wouldn't find anybody in there who has more than a couple of years of experience. and that's a very different cohort and offering from, let's say what we call our core product, because, you know, that's folks who have more experience.

[00:51:33] Rahul Samat: And what you'd see is very different types of companies, but what you also then by design sees that people who are in one cohort are in a very similar life stage, have a very similar. Appetite for risk are able to take decisions which don't impact their, you know, anybody except themselves. For example, you know, in a graduate program, it wouldn't be surprising for us to see some of our founders pair up with [00:52:00] founders in other countries, because it's easy when you're 23 or 22 to relocate to another country and build a company in another country.

[00:52:07] Rahul Samat: Or for, let's say like a founder from another country to come and build a company in India, that's much harder to do when you're in your mid thirties, for example. Right. So, yeah, it is an important thing that people consider.

[00:52:17] Rahul: Yeah. And, you know, EF was in Singapore. They're no longer in Singapore, but, when they were, it felt like, you know, EF was mostly about, trying to build tech startups. Uh, would you agree or?

[00:52:31] Rahul Samat: I think fundamentally, you know, we don't have a, sectorial thesis. So, you know, we don't go about, curating our cohorts in a way where like there's no design that says, you know, we need a 20 percent deep tech or. 30 percent consumer or, you know, 40 percent healthcare. Like we don't really go about cutting our cohort design that way, or even curating our business in that manner.

[00:52:55] Rahul Samat: Our thesis is very simple. Like we work with exceptional people who will be exceptional [00:53:00] founders. What they build is really up to them. We're not a venture studio that gives them an idea. Like they will ID it, right? Like EF would equip them with the relevant framework to help them figure what they should be building, where they have an unfair advantage, where they have a certain right to win.

[00:53:14] Rahul Samat: but we wouldn't give that to them basically. So what ends up happening then Raul is that, you know, you would see that, maybe in Singapore, for example, there's a very thriving deep tech ecosystem, right? So people who are living in Singapore who go to universities there, are exposed to others who build those kinds of companies, or they have access to talent and, um, early employees that are skilled in those ways.

[00:53:38] Rahul Samat: And so that's really a more, more, ecosystem playing out in a way where you might see that EF companies also reflect to what the local ecosystem is. but it's not by design such that EF would only build deep tech companies. So for example, even in our portfolio in India or globally, you know, we've got a very diverse portfolio.

[00:53:56] Rahul Samat: We've got. We've of course have software and we've [00:54:00] got, you know, most of our portfolio software, but even within that, you know, you'll see like AI companies, you'll see blockchain companies, you know, you also see like deep tech or hardware plays, we've got like space tech companies. We have a company in.

[00:54:13] Rahul Samat: Paris portfolio, which does plant based bacon. So that's a very different business than let's say like a London company that's doing, AI generated human, like voice, for example. Right. So, that's a very, those are very different places. Those are very diverse place. And that's because we don't really have a thesis.

[00:54:30] Rahul Samat: and so we wouldn't have one for Singapore or India as well.

[00:54:33] Rahul: Yeah. Um, one last question. So, you mentioned about your two programs, one for graduates and one, your core program is for older experienced folks. For these two sort of, different sort of talents, right? Like why do you think, EF or like EF sort of, program should be their go to build strategy sort of thing?

[00:54:57] Rahul: because they could just, apply for [00:55:00] an accelerator or Go work with a venture studio or many other things or

[00:55:05] Rahul Samat: Yeah.

[00:55:05] Rahul: like

[00:55:06] Rahul Samat: Yeah, I think that's a great question. So,

[00:55:08] Rahul: And for both sets of founders, right? You have these young founders and also these experienced folks.

[00:55:14] Rahul Samat: So I think, you know, it's fundamental, to realize that the EF, product is for folks who are early in their founding journey. So what I mean by that is, you know, oftentimes a lot of the founders who join our programs are pre idea.

[00:55:27] Rahul Samat: They haven't even figured out what they will be building. Like imagine, right? They know that they want to be a founder. They know they have the ambition and the aspiration to be a founder. We know that they have the potential to be a great founder, but they haven't necessarily figured out. Exactly what they're going to build.

[00:55:44] Rahul Samat: They haven't necessarily figured out, who they're going to work with, right? Like these are, these are pieces that they still have to figure out. And our worldview is that the journey to go from the ambition to being a founder and actually even getting to. Let's say like a founding [00:56:00] team that has a certain idea, right?

[00:56:02] Rahul Samat: Like if you're applying to an accelerator, you're likely applying as a team. You're applying as, um, you're applying with, you know, at the very least an idea and possibly with some product and some traction, right? Like the, the, what an accelerator brings to is. It accelerates your journey. It takes a company which has maybe some basic traction or has an idea of what they want to build.

[00:56:22] Rahul Samat: Oftentimes it's two founders, or a small team and it accelerates the journey. our belief with EF is that we come in when you haven't reached that stage. And actually our worldview is that a lot of people don't ever get there because it's so hard to go from the ambition to being a founder and even getting to that stage of having a team or a concept or an idea or you know, like a product.

[00:56:44] Rahul Samat: And that's where EF comes in. So, you know, you would choose EF, mainly because you're so early on in your journey and you're trying to figure what is the impact that can make in the world? Like what is the true realization of the impact that could create? Right. Traditionally. [00:57:00] culturally, you know, we're all told that, hey, there are these certain jobs that are, you know, the, the jobs that are, you know, traditionally meant to be mapped out to successful lives, right?

[00:57:12] Rahul Samat: this is just cultural norms, right? Like back in the day, maybe in the, seventies or eighties, you know, you should have been a doctor for you to be successful and create impact in the country or in the world. now. You know, like maybe five years back or 10 years back, that was more like being an investment banker or, you know, working, in finance or working in consulting today, it's probably go work at like a tech, you know, big tech company.

[00:57:36] Rahul Samat: So that's traditionally what. Cultures have told you is successful parts. what EF believes is that that's not the only way to make impact in the world. In fact, I would say, I would argue that that's an ambition dampening way to make impact in the world. Uh, the way we believe you can make impact in the world is by being an entrepreneur who can create those jobs instead of taking one of those jobs, right, and move the world and the, you know, your country forward.

[00:57:59] Rahul Samat: and so [00:58:00] fundamentally, you know, you joined the program. Either the graduate program or the core program because you're somebody who is not satisfied with the status quo. You're somebody who you believe is an outlier and you're not okay with doing the obvious, you know, what the world has told you, you need to do your restless in fact, to actually go on and create impact in the world outsized impact basically, because you have finite time here.

[00:58:22] Rahul Samat: And EF is the vehicle to make that happen. Because what EF does is it puts you in a room with other people like that. It puts you in a peer group that you've probably never seen in your life. And what that does for your own ambition, what that does for your own personal development, like it's transformational.

[00:58:39] Rahul Samat: I've seen people join that room and in six months become unrecognizable to who they were. So if that's the kind of, professional and personal development you aspire to have in your life, then EF is the right program for it.

[00:58:51] Rahul: The commonly held belief is that, you know, people who go on to build great companies are so compelled by [00:59:00] wanting to solve a particular problem that That's the reason, right? Like, then it's kind of also telling, that you don't actually need a catalyst in this case of EF. So, but, but you're saying that, um, there is still value for being a

[00:59:15] Rahul Samat: Yeah. So I'd look at it this way, right? Oftentimes, it's very hard to figure what that is, right? Some of us, some of us might know what that is, but the hardest part is to actually figure what that is, right? Like it's very, very hard to figure what is that thing that you obsess about? Or what is that thing where you can add outside impact to the world?

[00:59:35] Rahul Samat: What is that thing that you have a certain right to win in, right? Unpacking that. In a way, which is a structured approach to get there is one of the hardest things where you need catalyzing, you actually need someone to guide you through that and you need someone who's not, you know, emotionally in your head, right?

[00:59:52] Rahul Samat: Like, you need someone who is almost like, um, almost like a coach to you, right? Like, you need like, you need like a [01:00:00] Personal impact coach, that's it, right? Like who is pulling that out of you, right? And that's what a talent investor does. It helps, they help you figure what is that thing that you create outsized impact on, and then like to be able to catalyze your potential to get there, because it's not just knowing what it is, but then it's also like figuring out how to go about it, figuring out to go about it in a way where you've not spent five years or 10 years getting there, it's about, making that opportunity a reality while it's still an opportunity, because you could.

[01:00:27] Rahul Samat: Maybe figure that out on your own in five years, but odds are that there's another company that has gotten there faster, right? So it's, it's a bunch of those things. And that's what a talented thing or a talent investor would do for you.

[01:00:37] Rahul: Yeah. Yeah, I guess the problem here is that, you know, I've never had needed any nudge, so I can't really relate to, yeah, uh, such a person, but, but yeah,

[01:00:50] Rahul Samat: You're one of the lucky few, I guess, because I know personally myself as well, you know, oftentimes, I might have like a want to win. So what I mean by that [01:01:00] is I might know that I want to build this or I want to do this because, you know, it excites me and I feel a lot of value that, but a want to win is very different than a right to win, which is, hey, actually, where can I actually create outsized impact?

[01:01:11] Rahul Samat: And. If those two match up, that's the ideal place to be in, but they don't always match up.

[01:01:16] Rahul: this was great. Thank you so much for taking the

[01:01:20] Rahul Samat: my pleasure. It was lovely talking to you, Raul. And, you know, great, great to spend this time today. I'm happy to like, you know, maybe sync up again and chat again in the future and tell you a little more, in the future about what we do and, Maybe, you know, reach more audiences of yours because I'm pretty sure that if some, even if one of them realizes that he gets what I actually relate to what Rahul has said in that I want to go and create outsized impact.

[01:01:42] Rahul Samat: And I want to figure out how to go and do that in a way in which, you know, I'm going to be able to figure that out with like others who will upsize my ambition. I think then we would have done a great job today.

[01:01:53] Rahul: Yeah, yeah, we should do this again in future.